I hate AK/AQ :) help needed

**rmariani** · 05-06-2005 01:17 PM

I loose all my $ with this hands, and I'm sure I play them bad. I push them too far when I don't hit (?) and when they do someone beats me

I need some guidelines to play this please!!!!!

These 2 hands were the very first 2 hands of my late session yesterday

It should have been a sign and I should quit right there!
Anyway, my point is: Should I fold this to the raise?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, K

. CO posts a blind of $2.
5 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9

, J

, K

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 6

(3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button raises, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (12 BB) 2

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Ah Ks (one pair, kings).
Button has 9h 9d (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: Button wins 14 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, Q

.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7

, A

, 3

(5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5

(4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 8

(4 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has As Qd (one pair, aces).
UTG has 5d 5c (three of a kind, fives).
CO has Td Tc (one pair, tens).
Outcome: UTG wins 14.50 BB.

**Fnord** · 05-06-2005 02:14 PM

Both hands well played.

**Grand_MasterB** · 05-06-2005 02:15 PM

i wouldnt raise in the first hand preflop. you are out of position and at these small stakes no one is going to fold preflop for one bet more. plus just calling disguises your hand.

**Fnord** · 05-06-2005 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB

i wouldnt raise in the first hand preflop. you are out of position and at these small stakes no one is going to fold preflop for one bet more. plus just calling disguises your hand.

You so silly. He has too much of an edge to not raise AKo pre-flop. I can dig up the really long 2+2 thread where this was discussed. Also, if he only raises AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK-AJs/KQs here he's giving away too much information.

**Rondavu** · 05-06-2005 02:34 PM

You ALWAYS raise AK preflop no matter what position your in. Disguising your hand is better saved for No Limit play. Even then I would rarely act weak holding AK.

There are way too many hands people are willing to limp with, but will instantly fold to a 2-bet. It's not worth the hassle to limp. It's a losing proposition.

So many times I've watched someone get run down trying to get cute with a raising hand. What ever happened to the art of protection? I bet you don't raise top pair ok kicker in mid position when bet into postflop either. You gotta protect it baby!

**Grand_MasterB** · 05-06-2005 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB

i wouldnt raise in the first hand preflop. you are out of position and at these small stakes no one is going to fold preflop for one bet more. plus just calling disguises your hand.

You so silly. He has too much of an edge to not raise AKo pre-flop. I can dig up the really long 2+2 thread where this was discussed. Also, if he only raises AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK-AJs/KQs here he's giving away too much information.

too much of an edge? with AKo on the BB with 3 other players? even if none of the other players have a PP he is still only a sleight favorite to win against this many players

**Fnord** · 05-06-2005 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Rondavu

There are way too many hands people are willing to limp with, but will instantly fold to a 2-bet. It's not worth the hassle to limp. It's a losing proposition.

Explain how raising out of the BB gets anyone to fold (other than maybe the poster)?

**Fnord** · 05-06-2005 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB

too much of an edge? with AKo on the BB with 3 other players? even if none of the other players have a PP he is still only a sleight favorite to win against this many players

2,401,137 games 26.719 secs 89,866 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 18.7564 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-QTs, JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 2: 16.4592 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 18.9378 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 4: 16.3907 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 29.4560 % [ 00.28 00.01 ] { AhKs }

In terms of most poker games, that's a pretty big edge. Don't confuse multi-way hand values with heads-up hand values.

If eveyone calls the raise has an EV of +.25BB

2,669,537 games 15.812 secs 168,829 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 22.6287 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-QTs, JTs, T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 2: 21.5736 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K2o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 20.2064 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 35.5913 % [ 00.34 00.01 ] { AhKs }

If the poster folds, the raise has an EV of +.35BB

**Fnord** · 05-06-2005 04:53 PM

UTG+1 is the table sucker
Everyone else seems weak/tight
Been around for about an orbit, I just took 2 of 2 pots on uncalled flop bets (gutshot, under-pair), plus made a blind steal so I might have an image.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q

, A

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 caps, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) T

, 4

, 7

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) A

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (14.16 BB) 8

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 16.16 BB

Results in white below:
MP2 has Jh Jc (one pair, jacks).
Fnord has Qd Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins 16.16 BB.

05-06-2005 01:17 PM #1
rmariani View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2005 Posts 115	I hate AK/AQ :) help needed I loose all my $ with this hands, and I'm sure I play them bad. I push them too far when I don't hit (?) and when they do someone beats me I need some guidelines to play this please!!!!! These 2 hands were the very first 2 hands of my late session yesterday It should have been a sign and I should quit right there! Anyway, my point is: Should I fold this to the raise? Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K. CO posts a blind of $2. 5 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls. Flop: (9 SB) 9, J, K (4 players) SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds. Turn: (6 BB) 6 (3 players) Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button raises, Hero calls, MP3 calls. River: (12 BB) 2 (3 players) Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds. Final Pot: 14 BB Results in white below: Hero has Ah Ks (one pair, kings). Button has 9h 9d (three of a kind, nines). Outcome: Button wins 14 BB. Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q. UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks. Flop: (5 SB) 7, A, 3 (5 players) Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls. Turn: (4.50 BB) 5 (4 players) Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls. River: (8.50 BB) 8 (4 players) Hero bets, UTG raises, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls. Final Pot: 14.50 BB Results in white below: Hero has As Qd (one pair, aces). UTG has 5d 5c (three of a kind, fives). CO has Td Tc (one pair, tens). Outcome: UTG wins 14.50 BB.

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05-06-2005 02:14 PM #2
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Both hands well played.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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05-06-2005 02:15 PM #3
Grand_MasterB View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2004 Posts 560 Location Cincinnati	i wouldnt raise in the first hand preflop. you are out of position and at these small stakes no one is going to fold preflop for one bet more. plus just calling disguises your hand.

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05-06-2005 02:19 PM #4
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB i wouldnt raise in the first hand preflop. you are out of position and at these small stakes no one is going to fold preflop for one bet more. plus just calling disguises your hand. You so silly. He has too much of an edge to not raise AKo pre-flop. I can dig up the really long 2+2 thread where this was discussed. Also, if he only raises AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK-AJs/KQs here he's giving away too much information.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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05-06-2005 02:34 PM #5
Rondavu View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2005 Posts 3,328	You ALWAYS raise AK preflop no matter what position your in. Disguising your hand is better saved for No Limit play. Even then I would rarely act weak holding AK. There are way too many hands people are willing to limp with, but will instantly fold to a 2-bet. It's not worth the hassle to limp. It's a losing proposition. So many times I've watched someone get run down trying to get cute with a raising hand. What ever happened to the art of protection? I bet you don't raise top pair ok kicker in mid position when bet into postflop either. You gotta protect it baby!
	It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside? Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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I hate AK/AQ :) help needed

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05-06-2005 02:38 PM #6
Grand_MasterB View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2004 Posts 560 Location Cincinnati	Originally Posted by Fnord Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB i wouldnt raise in the first hand preflop. you are out of position and at these small stakes no one is going to fold preflop for one bet more. plus just calling disguises your hand. You so silly. He has too much of an edge to not raise AKo pre-flop. I can dig up the really long 2+2 thread where this was discussed. Also, if he only raises AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK-AJs/KQs here he's giving away too much information. too much of an edge? with AKo on the BB with 3 other players? even if none of the other players have a PP he is still only a sleight favorite to win against this many players

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05-06-2005 03:55 PM #7
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Originally Posted by Rondavu There are way too many hands people are willing to limp with, but will instantly fold to a 2-bet. It's not worth the hassle to limp. It's a losing proposition. Explain how raising out of the BB gets anyone to fold (other than maybe the poster)?
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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05-06-2005 03:59 PM #8
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB too much of an edge? with AKo on the BB with 3 other players? even if none of the other players have a PP he is still only a sleight favorite to win against this many players 2,401,137 games 26.719 secs 89,866 games/sec equity (%) win (%) / tie (%) Hand 1: 18.7564 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-QTs, JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o } Hand 2: 16.4592 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { random } Hand 3: 18.9378 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o } Hand 4: 16.3907 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { random } Hand 5: 29.4560 % [ 00.28 00.01 ] { AhKs } In terms of most poker games, that's a pretty big edge. Don't confuse multi-way hand values with heads-up hand values. If eveyone calls the raise has an EV of +.25BB 2,669,537 games 15.812 secs 168,829 games/sec equity (%) win (%) / tie (%) Hand 1: 22.6287 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-QTs, JTs, T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o } Hand 2: 21.5736 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K2o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o } Hand 3: 20.2064 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random } Hand 4: 35.5913 % [ 00.34 00.01 ] { AhKs } If the poster folds, the raise has an EV of +.35BB
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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05-06-2005 04:53 PM #9
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	UTG+1 is the table sucker Everyone else seems weak/tight Been around for about an orbit, I just took 2 of 2 pots on uncalled flop bets (gutshot, under-pair), plus made a blind steal so I might have an image. Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q, A. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 caps, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls. Flop: (13.33 SB) T, 4, 7 (3 players) UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls. Turn: (8.16 BB) A (3 players) UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls. River: (14.16 BB) 8 (3 players) UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls. Final Pot: 16.16 BB Results in white below: MP2 has Jh Jc (one pair, jacks). Fnord has Qd Ac (one pair, aces). Outcome: Fnord wins 16.16 BB.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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