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TylerK
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05-21-2005, 03:07 AM
Post subject: I butcher the flop. What's better?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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I think raising would have been the best option and calling the worst. Thoughts?
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is CO with A , K .
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.
Flop: (10.50 SB) J , 9, 2 (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.
Turn: (6.75 BB) A (3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.
River: (12.75 BB) 5 (3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.
Final Pot: 14.75 BB
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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I agree that you probably should have raised to weed out but sometimes it's hard to tell. Depending on the opponents I raise that from position almost everytime. When you improve like this hand I'm definately dropping the hammer.
This is a more standard passive play...You may have made 1-2 more smB for your raise if you had been aggressive.
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I'm on the fence here. A lead like that usually means crap or a weak pair. Quite often I play it the same, not wanting to spew a lot of chips in a 5-way pot with an unimproved AKo. I see lots of players over-play a missed AK here.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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i raise this flop every time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
i raise this flop every time.
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Why? I don't think this is an auto-raise.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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the board is relatively raggy, except a possibly straight draw. if there are draws out there you want them to pay. otherwise, you clean up some possibly reverse domination if you drive out the remaining players. your raise can also give you a possibly free turn card, if you choose to take it.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
otherwise, you clean up some possibly reverse domination if you drive out the remaining players.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I don't think this is an auto-raise.
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I agree. AJ A9 A2, KJ K9 K2 have odds to call your flop raise, as does an OESD. I like hero's line here in the multiway pot.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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If we can assume that top pair with a kicker isn't folding here, I think that a middle or bottom pair is making a mistake calling 2 bets on the flop, but not 1 bet. (10-1ish vs 5-1ish)
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
I agree. AJ A9 A2, KJ K9 K2 have odds to call your flop raise, as does an OESD. I like hero's line here in the multiway pot.
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just because they have odds to call doesn't mean you shouldn't charge them the maximum amount. in fact, you should as much as you can get away with.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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If you keep the pot small on the flop, then raise a favorable turn, you give him significantly less odds, with only 1 card to come. By making this pot bigger, you are allowing them to play closer to correct strategy on later streets.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
If you keep the pot small on the flop, then raise a favorable turn, you give him significantly less odds, with only 1 card to come. By making this pot bigger, you are allowing them to play closer to correct strategy on later streets.
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and i think you sacrifice expectation in doing so, in exchange for less variance. i side with more expectation. i raise.
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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Raising here is not automatic...But I think that under average conditions i'll make money with that play...and you are correct Room that a draw has odds to check/call to the river...but the whole point of limit is to not pay their draw more than you have to. Untill his draw hits he's paying you. You cannot miss a bet simply because they may have odds to outdraw you...Now you're giving him a free/cheap card instead of making him pay you for your good cards.
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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