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AKQJ
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04-01-2009, 04:01 PM
Post subject: HPFAP - strange advices
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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What do you think about these advices from HPFAP-Sklansky and Malmuth? Some of them are in contradiction with the advices from SSH. Very strange given the fact that Sklansky and Malmuth were also 2 of the authors of SSH.
page 175: Let's look a little closer at AQ (and similar hands). If you hold hands like AQ in early position, you should probably not raise if you are in a game where your raise will fail to cut down the field. For your raise with AQ to be correct, you must be able to limit the pot to only a small number of players.
(According to SSH this is a raise. Even if you can’t limit the pot to only a small number of players, AQ has a pot equity edge. AJo can be limped in a multi-way pot but AQo is too strong to limp).
page 33: If you hold AQo in late position and a lot of players are in the pot, it is probably best to just call(if there has not yet been a raise). (According to SSH this is a raise)
page 171: Suppose you have a pair of aces on the button, many players are in, the pot is very large, the flop comes J87r and they all check to you. The play is to also check! (The check is because you can’t protect your hand. SSH has some examples where it is reccomended to wait until the turn to raise in large pots, but has no examples where you should wait until the turn to bet. In all the examples from SSH if you have a made hand and all the players check to you, you should bet).
page 90: Suppose the pot is many-handed and you get a free play in the big blind. You hold 7  2  and the flop comes 7  6 2  You check, planning to check-raise, but no one bets. The fourth-street card is the Q Again you check, planning to check-raise. (What are the authors waiting? Nobody raised preflop and they are checking the flop planning to check-raise? No one bets on the flop and they are still checking the turn hoping for someone to bet?)
page 193: If you're playing against a super aggressive player who always makes a c-bet: Our advice is to pretend that the top card isn't there! Take it of the board, or turn it into a deuce in your mind, and see if you would still play. In other words if you have the QTo and the flop is A94r just change it to 942o. If you do this you should be at approximately the right strategy for playing against super aggressive players who constantly take the pot odds on a steal or a semi-steal. (You would play in this spot since you have two "overcards" and a backdoor straight draw.) (No comment)
page 204: When you are last to act and you are against an extremely aggressive player you should slowplay some hands that don't seem to merit this strategy. For example, suppose you start with ATo and the flop is A62r two people check, you are last to act, and one of your opponents is an extremely aggressive player. You should always check, whether you raised or just called preflop, because no matter what comes off, the extremely aggressive player will bet it on fourth street. (Checking the flop makes no sense. If he is so aggressive he may check-raise me with air. Why to wait until the turn and to give my opponents a free card?)
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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These books are very good but I don't take everything said in them to heart. They are merely presenting situations and their suggestions on how to act. You seem to have pin-pointed a few doozies.
The part from page 90 is kind of WTF?! Just bet the fucking turn. Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS) like this will often have you missing value, giving free cards, and getting out drawn.
Page 193: this is not that great of advice, since they're telling you to pretend the board is something else and to play the board, not the player.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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On top of what Airles said, two additional points:
- SSH is aimed at loose Small Stakes games, of course, and therefore suggests a far more straightforward style of play that will exploit the types of games found there. HFAP is most relevant to higher limit games. There are salient points for all limits in both books but there will be differences as well. Again, the main worth of these books is in presenting some situations and guiding you the thought processes you should mirror at the table. The goal is not to give you a precise recipe, but an idea that you can apply given certain circumstances.
- While Malmuth and Sklansky contributed to SSH and lent name recognition, your buddy Ed Miller probably wrote the majority of the book. This would explain some of the differences between SSH and other Sklansky books.
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
HFAP is most relevant to higher limit games.
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Yes, the original book was written for higher limit games. But they have added a "loose games" section to the 21st century edition. (examples from page 171 and 175 are from that "loose games" section).
I was also disappointed by the short-handed section (very weak IMO). I think you have big chances to go broke in today's games if you play like the book teaches you to do. Regarding the example from page 193, I would rather check-raise him instead of calling with QTo. If you call with QTo on that flop and the turn doesn't improve your hand you have to fold. This play is too passive to be a winning play in high limit games.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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in quick regards to the short-handed session in HEFAP, i liked it a lot. it proved to me that i really need to loosen up and play aggressively. i am trying to bully you out of a pot a lot of the time, not wait for the nuts and valuebet.
now, what it does NOT take into consideration, imo, is how many of these donks will call all the way down because they are addicted to picking off bluffs.
what the reader needs to learn is what type of hand is TRULY a strong enough hand to bet 3 times......and, its not as strong as they think. the reader just needs to practice, pay attention, and work on equity advantages vs that specific player's range. once the reader gains the experience to figure that out..........HEFAP's short-handed section has done its job.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
it proved to me that i really need to loosen up and play aggressively. i am trying to bully you out of a pot a lot of the time, not wait for the nuts and valuebet.
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This is just basic advice, not something special. Every SH article starts with this. The book's name is Holdem Poker for advanced players, not for beginners. "Winning in Tough Holdem Games" by Stoxtrader is more better for advanced SH strategies than HPFAP.
For who is interested I've found an old 2+2 thread regarding the example from page 193: http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1
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