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littleogre

02-14-2006, 02:59 PM Post subject: How would you play the following hand?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

You are in a 6 max game and are dealt kj of diamonds in the bb.

You 2 bet when it is your turn and 3 players cold call. The flop is kj9 giving you to 2 pair. You bet and they both call. Flop is an 6 and at this point there are possible flushes. The first 2 act and the second to act calls. You 2 bet and the first 2 act 3 bets and the second to act caps. I will post my decesion later but would like to know what you guys would do at this point.

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pokerfanatic

02-14-2006, 05:17 PM

#2 (permalink)

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let me get this straight you have KJs in the bb a guy raises and 3 players cold call putting the raiser in UTG position... yes you call because you have odds to do so... given the raiser has position I would c/r to trap in the entire field from 2 bets, I also don't see where you went from 5 players including you preflop to "u donk and they both call"??? Umm I think you mean the turn was a 6 I though the flop was KJ9 the turn becomes 2 s00ted the idea that the flop had a FD in it might make a difference on to c/r the flop... I'm totally confused about the action now because I though it was 3 handed and now you make it sound 5 handed again...

Given I have no fucking idea what the action was and how many player were in the pot or how big that pot is, or even what my play would be on the flop, I can't tell you if I were to play it or not...

maybe try rewording with bettor info please

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littleogre

02-14-2006, 05:33 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

you read the hand completely wrong. I had kj preflop and it was limped to me and i 2 bet and a couple players cold called. The pot was never 3 bet untill the turn and i never said it was 3 bet preflop.

Nehmer

02-14-2006, 05:59 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

I think the problem here is that you are using terms incorrectly, so it is difficult for us to tell what is going on in the hand. If somebody limps preflop and then you raise and they call, that is not a cold call. If somebody hasn't acted yet and you raise and they call the raise, that is a cold call. It also would make it a lot easier to read if you said that you raised preflop instead of saying that you 2-bet. It is also wrong to say that the first to act calls after the turn(not flop) is a 6 when in fact you meant that he bet. I'll try and restate your post a little more clearly.

"You are in a 6 max game and are dealt kj of diamonds in the bb."

UTG and UTG+1 limp preflop and everybody else folds. You for some reason decide to raise with your KJs and both other players call. The flop is KJ9 with 2 clubs giving you top two pair. You bet and both other players call. The turn brings the 6 of clubs. You check for some reason. UTG bets and UTG+1 calls, you now decide to throw out a check raise and then UTG 3-bets and UTG+1 caps. What do you do now? Personally, I think this hand was played poorly enough up to this point that it doesn't matter what you do now you are going to lose money at poker in the long run

thenonsequitur

02-14-2006, 07:05 PM

#5 (permalink)

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In this situation I'm not sure if KJs has enough equity to raise from the big blind. It depends on what your specific opponents will limp with and how well you can play it postflop.

Turn bet good.

Why did you decide to check-raise the turn? Just bet out the turn.

As for your actual question, when the turn is capped and it's two bets back to you, the strategy is simple. Your explanation of when people folded is not very clear, so I'm not sure how big the pot is at this point, but the pot size is what should determine your play here. It's probably safe to say that you are behind to at least a set, likely a flush. Count the pot and call if it is big enough for a 4-outer to a full house (if you hit, you will almost always be paid off, sometimes for many bets, so you can add a little for implied odds). Fold if the pot is not big enough.

If you have the odds to call the turn but you don't hit your river card, check the river, and then call if it's one bet to you (for the offchance someone is overplaying AK or a lower two pair), fold if it's two bets to you.

pokerfanatic

02-14-2006, 07:26 PM

#6 (permalink)

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no you missread my post, Nehmer hit it on the head with what i was getting at...

littleogre

02-15-2006, 07:55 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

first off nehmer i do just fine at poker but if you want to think i don't that doesn't really matter to me i mainly just ask questions to start a discussion not because i don't actually know all to play the hand. Also i'm not so conceded that i think i play perfect and am well aware the others may and some surely will have a better way to play the hands i post. You on the other hand seem to be interested in insuling me and thats cool as it doesn't really matter to me. Yes as another poster pointed out the 6 did indeed come on the turn. so lets just start with the flop action but please remember that i raised preflop

3 players see the flop me in the bb and 2 others who we will call bob and mark.

flop kj9 with 2 spades giving me top 2 pair
action
ogre bets
bob calls
mark call

turn 6 non spade
action ogre checks
bob bets
mark calls
ogre raises or 2 bets which ever term works for you.
bob raises or 3 bets
mark 4 bets or caps
ogre folds quicker then a fat man headed to a buffet about to close

now someone asked why the check raise. Well to give bob who loved to bet alot of the time when someone checks a chance to bluff thats why.

now i folded because it was rather clear that someone had a set or str8 by the time that it got back around to me meaning that i need a k or j on the river to possible win the pot. it was gona cost me 2 big bets to call and the pot was not laying the correct odds to chase the boat. In the end bob had queen/10 of spades for a floped str8. So i played the hand srongly when it looked like i was infront and folded when it was clear that i was beaten and had incorrect odds to chase. Some seem to think thats bad poker and i'm not sure why. Also it is not a donkey play to raise kj suited when everyone else has limped. You probably have the best hand anyway.

Lastly tyvm to thenonsequitur who posted the most helpful and clear aswer to my question

koolmoe

02-15-2006, 08:45 PM

#8 (permalink)

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If you think you are up against a straight and/or a set and can lay down the river unimproved, then I think it's a slightly bad fold because of implied odds.

If you think there is any possibility that you are ahead, then it is a very bad fold.

Poker is freedom

Ltrain

02-15-2006, 09:23 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

You probably have the best hand anyway.

This is untrue since you are behind to any ace. Even if it was true, would you raise pocket 2's here? It likely would be the best hand but a raise against 3 limpers would be a bad play because of reverse implied odds.

By raising you are making it difficult on your postflop play because the limpers will not fold. Most of the time you miss the flop and will not be able to push other players off their hands to win, and you just cost yourself a small bet. If you hit a pair, you have given your opponents odds for most holdings to at least call your flop bet because the pot is large enough and they have implied odds against your agression. If you hit two pair (like you did which is very rare), you may have a hard time protecting it to showdown because of straights, which you did in this case. Finally, you could hit a straight or flush draw, which would be your best scenario to justify your PF raise because of pot equity on the flop. Given the probability of these scenarios, checking PF is the best play.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

pokerfanatic

02-15-2006, 09:37 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

first off nehmer i do just fine at poker but if you want to think i don't that doesn't really matter to me

you wouldn't have brought it up if you didn't care...

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

Also i'm not so conceded that i think i play perfect and am well aware the others may and some surely will have a better way to play the hands i post. You on the other hand seem to be interested in insuling me and thats cool as it doesn't really matter to me.

I'm sure Nehmer is not trying to insult you on purpose; he was basically trying to explain WHY I posted what I did and the reason behind it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

Yes as another poster pointed out the 6 did indeed come on the turn. so lets just start with the flop action but please remember that i raised preflop
3 players see the flop me in the bb and 2 others who we will call bob and mark.

it was me that pointed that out and the reason I did was I had no fucking idea what the action was on the flop or the turn based on the information given which Nehmer also explained is why I said I had no fucking idea how I would play the hand

you have 84 posts man we don't know anything about you other then the information you give us, if you give us incorrect terms or incomplete action then we have to say so it's not personal, so don't take it that way. If you find yourself thinking your post you're probably aggravated with what we have said, and that is a bit of tilt if you plan to play winning poker how do you plan to hold your composure when someone starts to rip into you at the table? I have said a lot of things to taggs to get them pissed at me and tilting, I’ll be willing to defend a fish’s play by saying he played great and calling you the dip shit, I really don't care as long as I get in your head.

So to prevent this kind of responses you can easily post a HH using the converter w/o the results and ask you question... here is an example...

This doesn't need to be answered...

Q: would you wait to the river to raise if you think that he would fold to a turn raise... well that's an obvious yes but you get my point...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: pkrfanatic01 is UTG with 9

, 9

.
pkrfanatic01 raises, 4 folds, BB 3-bets, pkrfanatic01 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9

, 9

, 5

(2 players)
BB bets, pkrfanatic01 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 7

(2 players)
BB bets, pkrfanatic01 calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 4

(2 players)
BB bets, pkrfanatic01 raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Demiparadigm

02-15-2006, 10:29 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

Raise the flop.

Quit being mean to ogre.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

midas06

02-16-2006, 12:28 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Posts: 2,196

edit: I dunno what's going on. Ever.

pokerfanatic

02-16-2006, 12:50 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Raise the flop.

Quit being mean to ogre.

you talking about my hand or his? my hand that guy had AKs he would have folded if i raised before the river and it was clubs not dimands

Demiparadigm

02-16-2006, 01:43 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Raise the flop.

Quit being mean to ogre.

you talking about my hand or his? my hand that guy had AKs he would have folded if i raised before the river and it was clubs not dimands

Results oriented.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

ArcticKnight

02-16-2006, 05:15 AM

#15 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Entertaining post.. I just think it's neat that the BB gets position on two players on the turn...

Makes me wonder what Hold-em would be like with rotational betting. Imagine the strategy implications.

"Hmmm...If I raise here and lose MP, then I'm 1st to act on the turn, but if I C/R and trap, and then keep him in play I'm 2nd to act with a chance to ....."
argh......this game is hard enough.

LitleOgre, everyone on this site is really patient compared to other sites. As suggested, try to use the hand converter.

If you are not good with this stuff, have a teenage son/daughter/nephew etc who is good with computers show you how to use the hand-converter. Kids love helping us computer -challenged folks.

best of luck

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

littleogre

02-16-2006, 12:37 PM

#16 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

first off nehmer i do just fine at poker but if you want to think i don't that doesn't really matter to me

you wouldn't have brought it up if you didn't care...

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

I'm sure Nehmer is not trying to insult you on purpose; he was basically trying to explain WHY I posted what I did and the reason behind it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

, 9

.
pkrfanatic01 raises, 4 folds, BB 3-bets, pkrfanatic01 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9

, 9

, 5

(2 players)
BB bets, pkrfanatic01 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 7

(2 players)
BB bets, pkrfanatic01 calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 4

(2 players)
BB bets, pkrfanatic01 raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

I don't know how to quote specefic text but at the top of your post you say that i wouldn't bring it up if i didn't care and i guess thats true but i just said how i feel about the subject. I mean nobody like to likes to feel insulted. When i say it doesn't matter i mean if he or she feels i am a bad player then there isn't much i can do about that.

pokerfanatic

02-16-2006, 02:36 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demi

Results oriented.

Well let's see I got 2 bet pf by a 30/10 easily be AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, or AA-TT, only time I miss bets by not raising the flop is if he has AA-TT which is 4 types of hands, where it is more probable he has the other 4 types given they can be made more ways... I’m looking at about a 60-70% chance he has something other then a big PP, and a 30-40% chance he has a PP, so I figure let him bet down with whatever because I have position, when he bets the river and I raise there is no way he puts me on quads and if he has TT-AA he 3 bets without thinking about it, and I cap and take him for 2 or 3 extra bets that if I raised the turn i probably wouldn't have gotten and if I raised the flop I might have missed 1 or 2 IF he has a pair... as it stands I think I got an extra 3bb out of him given he didn't have the big pair he might have called the flop but probably fold the turn, if not then i probably miss only gain 1 extra 2bb by playing it my way assuming he misses the river if he calls the river after I raised the fop I gain 0.5bb where my play i gained 1bb it's only a 0.5bb but I played it fine...

As a side not if it was multi way I would have raised the flop…

elipsesjeff

02-16-2006, 03:42 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Some people wait too long to raise, and I think when you have a monster you have to give yourself the opportunity to get as much money in as possible, risking the chance that he will fold. Hands such as quads, flushes, straights, boats, sets, etc are MONSTERS. They don't need to be protected (usually) and therefore no need to slowplay or whatever it is you are doing.

NOTICE, however, how the strategy changes when you have a marginal hand, and not a monster. TPWK, TPTK on a draw heavy board, etc should raise the river if you fear you may or may not be ahead but you don't want to have to call a 3bet on the turn and you don't want to fold their either. Raising the river decreases the likelihood of getting reraised, thus, raising the river with a monster instead of the turn is bad but raising the river instead of the turn when you are a slight favorite, is good. More often than not, you'll be in the marginal situations with marginal holdings when you are in blind offense/defense mode; and yes, I check/raise on the river with marginal holdings as well.

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