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pokernewb
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09-25-2005, 01:13 PM
Post subject: How should I play KQo and AJo from early position?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
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What I normally do is limp with them in a loose game or fold them in a tight game. Is this ok or should I be playing them differently?
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A'aag
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loyal son of Rochester
Posts: 172
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I raise AJo in any type of game. This is probably near 0EV, but I want action on my bigger hands, so I have to show I raise hands like this in EP. There's always debate about KQo in EP, but I'm personally more inclined to raise. I think folding these hands in a tight game is a big mistake- actually I think folding either of these hands (not facing a raise) in any game is a mistake. In a tight game especially, you want to take command of the table if you can, and the way to do that is to raise. I don't hate limping in a loose/passive game and I can see arguments for folding KQo in a really loose/aggro game, although I don't do it.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I limp both from EP. Raising AJo has only gotten me into trouble, and KQo is too easily dominated
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Raise both from EP, it's +EV.
However, if the game is silly loose with lots of stupid post-flop calls then limping becomes the better play.
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For some reason SSH says limp AJ from early position and raise KQ in loose games.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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going on my own experience, I stopped raising AJo from UTG or EP. Mid depends on table, and late is an easy raise. I believe I stopped doing this at $0.50/$1.00 , and the looseness of the game might have had something to do with it.
I'll re-evaluate.
Code:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 45.5046 % 44.32% 01.18% { AJo }
Hand 2: 27.2628 % 26.22% 01.04% { random }
Its a 2:1 against any random hand, and 60/40 dog to any pocket pair. Its probably about 0EV.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
going on my own experience, I stopped raising AJo from UTG or EP. Mid depends on table, and late is an easy raise. I believe I stopped doing this at $0.50/$1.00 , and the looseness of the game might have had something to do with it.
I'll re-evaluate.
Code:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 45.5046 % 44.32% 01.18% { AJo }
Hand 2: 27.2628 % 26.22% 01.04% { random }
Its a 2:1 against any random hand, and 60/40 dog to any pocket pair. Its probably about 0EV. |
Weak sauce....raise that AJ son
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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i agree with limping AJ and raising KQ, but you may as well raise AJ too.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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Muxy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canadian LOLUH'S AND AMERICAN LOLUHS
Posts: 1,529
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Hmmm i dont play much limit so take this with a grain of salt. I raise both.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
For some reason SSH says limp AJ from early position and raise KQ in loose games. |
Ed has said on 2+2 that it's so close it doesn't matter too too much. Game texture and such dictates the better play.
I raise it to get stronger player out of the pot (I don't want them playing in pots with me when they have position, also they will fold hands like AQ/AJ/KQ when I raise and I'd rather those hands not play.) Also, it balances out all the times I raise stronger holdings UTG.
However, if the game is silly loose, raising doesn't cut the field, AJ/KQ don't have much of an edge 5+ way and the information you give about your hand cuts into that (it will be more difficult to play Axx out of position in a pot you raised.) So limping to stay under the radar and keep the pot under control is the better play. Weak/tight players move up because in games that like that it works.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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This has been argued WAY TOO MANY TIMES for me to even care anymore. Search the forum next time because it's happened before.
That being said, I raise AJo in these games and have always advocated it. It's such a break even play it doesn't really matter what you do, but I like to raise because it gives me a more 'wild' image as well.
However, in loose games like Fnord said, especially live ones, raising is just going to increase your variance.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
going on my own experience, I stopped raising AJo from UTG or EP. Mid depends on table, and late is an easy raise. I believe I stopped doing this at $0.50/$1.00 , and the looseness of the game might have had something to do with it.
I'll re-evaluate.
Code:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 45.5046 % 44.32% 01.18% { AJo }
Hand 2: 27.2628 % 26.22% 01.04% { random }
Its a 2:1 against any random hand, and 60/40 dog to any pocket pair. Its probably about 0EV. |
It's actually a 53% to 92% to any pocket pair.
But that doesn't matter. In limit AJ earns more than a pair of deuces because it loses the min and wins the max and hits a lot more often. Pair of deuces unimproved may be the best hand, but it's certainly not to be played that way. Of course you're out of position, BUT NOT IF ONLY THE BLINDS PLAY!
You want to raise so everyone has to cold-call or raise to get in the pot and it may be up to the blinds, the players who you actually have position on.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Code:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.6293 % 40.37% 00.26% { AJo }
Hand 2: 59.3707 % 59.11% 00.26% { 22+ }
MY KQo is -$200 at 2/4 over 75 hands. I'm close to dumping it from EP.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
MY KQo is -$200 at 2/4 over 75 hands. I'm close to dumping it from EP.
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It could also be that you're not good at playing big cards out of position in a raised pot...
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
MY KQo is -$200 at 2/4 over 75 hands. I'm close to dumping it from EP.
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It could also be that you're not good at playing big cards out of position in a raised pot... |
which mean he should fold that kq..........
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A'aag
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loyal son of Rochester
Posts: 172
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Keep in mind that even if KQo is -EV for you UTG, it may (depending on who, if anyone, is paying attention) be made up for with increased action on your AA, KK, etc. UTG raises. With this in mind I like to do this: if I look around the table and see 3 or 4 guys that I have more than, say, 1k hands on, I'll occasionally raise something like 65s or 33 UTG, hoping I get to show it down. This is clearly -EV, and if I did it all the time or against unaware players I'd be an idiot, but you see what I'm saying. I think avoiding a tight image is really important.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by A'aag
I think avoiding a tight image is really important.
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I think it can't be avoided. The B&M play is so horrible that I can't hope to look like just another one of the guys. Also, consider that at most tables I still get way too much action even when I have a horrible image. Even in the worst of circumstances the donators refuse to get out of the way, so I'm left with them and legit hands (easy to read.)
So I settle for making the most of thin/neutral EV plays for "advertising." LAgg limps (he has AA or trash), Button is about to fold and I raise T8 from the CO. I think that's a far better play more likely to go to showdown than opening 65s from UTG. One of the few gems out of the SS2 LHE section is that UTG isn't a great place to get creative.
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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If your playing online games where raising isnt going to cut down the field you should probably leave and find a better table. HEFAP has a section talking about AQ and limping it UTG when you will fail to cut down the players on the flop. These situations are more for B&M where you cant eliminate the field. Online games, its easier to just get up and leave as cold calling and huge maniacs sitting on your right should be the biggest alerts to when to leave a game.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Online games, its easier to just get up and leave as cold calling and huge maniacs sitting on your right should be the biggest alerts to when to leave a game.
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If it's just the guys with position on you doing this, then leave (or reseat.) If the whole table is silly, then by all means play flops and make some bank.
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A'aag
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loyal son of Rochester
Posts: 172
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by A'aag
I think avoiding a tight image is really important.
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I think it can't be avoided. The B&M play is so horrible that I can't hope to look like just another one of the guys. Also, consider that at most tables I still get way too much action even when I have a horrible image. Even in the worst of circumstances the donators refuse to get out of the way, so I'm left with them and legit hands (easy to read.)
So I settle for making the most of thin/neutral EV plays for "advertising." LAgg limps (he has AA or trash), Button is about to fold and I raise T8 from the CO. I think that's a far better play more likely to go to showdown than opening 65s from UTG. One of the few gems out of the SS2 LHE section is that UTG isn't a great place to get creative. |
Yeah I play in a casino like once a year, so everything I say only applies to online. In the game you describe, I agree the play I mentioned is pointless. I use it when I see a bunch of the 25/5/1 or 12/4/4 types who are trying to play well but aren't. I also admit that if these guys are paying attention, then they already know I'm not a goofball, but I like to mess with them sometimes. That said, I get called a fish by bad players every now and then, and that rules.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by A'aag
That said, I get called a fish by bad players every now and then, and that rules.
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Consider that if you raise 65s UTG, that fishy play is a pretty good defense.
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Getting tricky with fish is always EV-
My most successful play is taking Q3o by insta-raising every street to the river with two callers. Next time I had TPTK I got insta-called by someone who wasn't even in that hand down to the river. All in all, I lost 3BB and went to eat dinner a little later.
I figure I'd still get some value for TPTK anyway so that "advertising" play is not worth it at the lower stakes anyway.
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A'aag
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loyal son of Rochester
Posts: 172
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by A'aag
That said, I get called a fish by bad players every now and then, and that rules.
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Consider that if you raise 65s UTG, that fishy play is a pretty good defense. |
That's exactly my point.
I only bring it up because it's an extreme example of why I always raise KQo in EP. It's the same reason I open raise ATo in MP, or A-rag in the CO or whatever. Also the same reason I'll open raise AA on the button. I don't want them to know what I have.
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