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Miggo
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12-13-2004, 03:00 PM
Post subject: How to play AK AQ
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
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I have a problem with these. I raise preflop and get a couple callers. The flop comes rags. Now if I'm in early position, do I bet or call? If I'm in late position do I bet or call? I don't know if someone hit a pair with the flop or not, and how long do I stay in waiting for a hand? If I bet, and someone hit TP, they're only gonna call my bet thinking I have a high pocket pair that I raised with and they're thinking they're still behind, or worse yet, they hit 2 pair and call just to slow play them and drag me along. If someone does raise, I would normally fold, but is it wrong to fold?
Any help or ideas playing these would be appreciated.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Don't play scared. Believe you have the best hand until given reason to believe otherwise.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Miggo
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
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I think that may be a leak in my game. I'll play TAggy pre and post flop, but then I get passive or bail out all together when I shouldn't. I guess that makes sense. They might have KQ, KJ, AJ, AT or any number of hands and they're just waiting for an A or K too. Then when that happens, I have them outkicked anyway and get a decent pot. I think I do tend to play like a wuss with some hands if I don't get a piece of the flop. Thanks.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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if someone raises you, you can safely muck your unimproved AK. very few players are capable of raising as a bluff, especially against more than 1 opponent.
late position, always bet. it will make them check to you on the turn, where you can check to see the river free.
early position, this is a bitch. sometimes i bet out, sometimes i check raise. but you're still going to have to act first on the turn. if you bet, they will probably make crying calls even with a pair of 4s. if you check, they'll get confused, but maybe fearing another check raise they'll check behind. reading your opponent is important if you're playing early position.
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Miggo
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
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Late position this makes a lot of sense. From early position, I like the check-raise after the flop unimproved. The problem is, after the turn, if you're still unimproved you have to bet then anyway, correct? Otherwise he's gonna bet and then what. If you check-raise post flop and then bet the turn, if he raises, then I fold. I think then I have to bet after the river too, unless I get raised somewhere along the way. Does this sound correct? If anything, if I lose, I still gain knowledge about the opponent. I think I have to bet instead of him thinking I'm gonna check raise. I think I have to rely on him folding thinking I have a bigger pocket pair.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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well heads up, AK will win half the time.
so all in all you should be breaking even. if you think there's a good chance they will fold, bet out first on the turn. if it's still 3 handed, you're probably screwed, cuz at least one of them has a pair.
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Miggo
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
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Sounds good. I think when it gets to this point, it goes back to the pre-mentioned read on your opponent, and your own table image. Because I play pretty tight on the lower limit tables I play on, it helps me take down pots like these when I've been at the table for awhile and hopefully they have been there for awhile too and have seen that I have some kind of decent hand. Thanks for the help.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Miggo:
If you RPF with AK and get 2 callers to the flop, there are at least 6 bets in the pot. More if you 3-bet/capped.
Even if the flop comes up rags (uncoordinated), you have 6 outs to spike top pair, top kicker on the turn. You only need 7:1 to draw.
So if you are in LP and nobody has bet, you can bet out your draw with correct pot odds. And hopefully cut the field in the process... or win it outright.
If you are in EP and expect everyone to call you (not raise) based on their demonstrated passivity, then you may also bet out.
However, if you are in EP and the guys behind you are not passive, check and call one bet.
Finally... if the pot is huge (say 12 bets), you are in EP, it is checked to the button, and he bets out, you should consider check-raising to knock out everyone else and get heads up.
ChezJ
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Miggo
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Miggo:
If you RPF with AK and get 2 callers to the flop, there are at least 6 bets in the pot. More if you 3-bet/capped.
Even if the flop comes up rags (uncoordinated), you have 6 outs to spike top pair, top kicker on the turn. You only need 7:1 to draw.
ChezJ
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This is where I have something figured wrong, or I understand this wrong. After I raise preflop and get two callers, there are 6 bets in the pot. Flop comes with no help. Now I have a 12-13% chance of getting TPTK on the turn. If I bet and get two callers, or one caller, I am putting 1 bet into a pot of 8 or 9 bets. (12.5% or 11%) of the pot? Is this how I calculate that?
I'm pretty new at this, and am actually doing ok. I have the simple pre-flop basics down, but was wondering if you calculate that on the fly, or if you've been in the situation enough that you know how it goes and should play it? Kind of like knowing a pair is 52% to win against two overcards.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Pages have been written on this subject. I can't do it justice in one post.
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steviebrutal
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 96
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The most important thing ive learned since posting in these boards (and reading SSH a couple of times) is that aggressions is the key to winning big. Poker is a game of "information that is available to you at any given time"... you have to use that information as it available to you. 'Rilla is absolutely right, and I probably learned this from him and Fnord more than anyone else, always ask yourself if theres any way you dont have the best hand. If it doesnt seem plausible in EP, bet out and all that information that comes is a wealth of knowledge that can save you on the other streets.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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This is where I have something figured wrong, or I understand this wrong. After I raise preflop and get two callers, there are 6 bets in the pot. Flop comes with no help. Now I have a 12-13% chance of getting TPTK on the turn. If I bet and get two callers, or one caller, I am putting 1 bet into a pot of 8 or 9 bets. (12.5% or 11%) of the pot? Is this how I calculate that?
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If you want to go by percentages, then by your own calculations, you are only contributing 11-12.5% to the pot yet you have a 12-13% chance of winning. Therefore you have about 1% edge, so you should clearly continue.
Percentages are not easy to calculate on the fly, unless you are Rain Man. It is much easier to memorize the odds of hitting your draw. Once you know the odds, then it is a simple matter of just counting the pot to see if the payoff matches the odds.
So in this example, you have 6 outs, which always means you have 7:1 odds to hit. As long as there are (or will be) 7 or more bets in the pot, you can put in one bet and draw profitably.
The most common draws you'll chase are 5- to 8- outers. For me, the odds for these are easy to memorize. Look at them and you'll see why!
5 outs = 8:1
6 outs = 7:1
7 outs = 6:1
8 outs = 5:1
ChezJ
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Miggo
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
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That does seem easier than using percentages. I can't remember why, but I've always figured using percentages. And I don't count the bets, I count the amounts, whether it be cash or chips. So when it is up to deciding what to do after the turn, I am guessing that you have to count the bets as double now, if you were betting them as one up until now?
For instance, I raise preflop and get 2 callers, there are 6 bets. I bet after the flop and two call. Now there are now 9 bets in the pot. Now the turn comes and I decide to bet. If I bet, I will win the pot or I will get at least one caller, so I can count the pot as at least 13 bets because these bets are double? So if the odds of me hitting my draw are better than than 13 to 1 I am correct to call or bet on the turn?
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miggo
So when it is up to deciding what to do after the turn, I am guessing that you have to count the bets as double now, if you were betting them as one up until now? For instance, I raise preflop and get 2 callers, there are 6 bets. I bet after the flop and two call. Now there are now 9 bets in the pot. Now the turn comes and I decide to bet. If I bet, I will win the pot or I will get at least one caller, so I can count the pot as at least 13 bets because these bets are double? So if the odds of me hitting my draw are better than than 13 to 1 I am correct to call or bet on the turn?
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On the turn, the pot is laying you 9 small bets to your 1 big bet (2 small bets). So you can think of it as 9:2 or more simply 4.5:1. Sklansky suggests rounding it down to 4:1, since there's usually a rake. If you bet and get one caller, you'll be getting 5:1. Good odds for an 8-outer such as an open ended straight draw.
Basically, you take the pot count and divide it by two on the turn. I know it takes some getting used to, but once you learn it, it becomes automatic. Try observing a table and just practice counting the pot for a while.
Of course, if you happen to be playing $0.50/$1, the pot size in dollars is also the pot size in big bets.
ChezJ
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Miggo
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 153
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That makes alot of sense now that you walked through a hand. I don't have a problem memorizing the out odds at the turn and the river, but I had a problem understanding the pot and my bet odds until now in ratio form, that's why I used percentages. I'd end up estimating, 26% of a 6.50 pot with my bet plus a caller etc. I think this is alot easier. I like the idea of observing a .50/1.00 table too to just practice. Imagine I have a certain hand, or figure what is most number of outs I can call a bet for with the current pot etc. Thanks alot for all the help.
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