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How often do you Limp & Then Fold if faced w/ ColdCall'n

  
 
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RiverMonkey
Old 03-23-2005, 06:56 PM     Post subject: How often do you Limp & Then Fold if faced w/ ColdCall'n #1 (permalink)  
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I'm a curious little chimp, so here's a generalized pre-flop question for yah. I'm sure we all have varying opinions here, but if you believe that most loose game hold'em money is won and lost post-flop, you've got to at least think this through for yourself, weigh the pros-&-cons and give it some consideration.

You're in a loose game with 5+ people seeing the flop almost every hand. People are regularly playing ace-rag-off, any two face cards, weakish off-suit hands, suited trash etc. regardless of postion. This is actually a pretty standard B&M game profile especially on a Friday or Saturday night.

You limp from EP or MP with a small (say 88 or smaller) pocket pair, or some other speculative/marginal holding like A-small-suited, or K-small-suited, suited connectors etc. Action moves around the table, and as usual 3 or more people limp after you, but then, for example, the CO raises, and the button re-raises (and maybe even one of the blinds caps it).

Do you regularly call two or more cold when the action comes back to you with the following reasoning:

o 'yeah, my hand is pretty speculative/marginal, but this pot is gonna be huge, so I only have to win a pot like 'x' times a night to make up for all the times I threw away 3 to 4 SBs'.

o I can out-play the majority of these mofos post-flop, so this isn't a bad strategy in the long run.

o I'm prepared for the added variance this will entail because winning big pots is fun!

If you do not limp-then-cold-call regularly, how often do you do it? And, more interestingly, how do you pick your spots?

Would you be more inclined to surrender your limp with earlier position in these pots because of your positional disadvantage for the rest of the hand?


Here's my thoughts:
----------------------
When you're cards aren't hitting, this can really bring down your stack quite quickly at a table that is pretty aggressive pre-flop. But, when you are hitting, you are looking at stacking up tons of chips. You'll need to be equipped with more than one buy-in to accomodate the increased variance

I used to play tighter in these situations and always surrender/fold my limp when it's 2+ back to me. Quite often I still do stay tight, and surrender when I'm in early position ... better yet, I tend to play fewer specualtive hands up-front. However, I've found that so much dead money stays in these huge pots at least to the turn and quite often to the river, that it often pays to loosen up some and make those pre-flop cold-calls after my original limp.

For me, the key is to know when to run for the hills based on how things play-out post-flop in these pots. Again, it's more about post-flop play then it is about making marginal plays pre-flop. You absolutely cannot be lured into thinking .. 'ah, this pot is huge ... I'm gonna stay in to the river at all costs'. You have to be thinking 'ok, I speculated tons pre-flop .... I now have to go into bet saving or bet winning mode'; you cannot live in between. You goal is to not be the dead money, and keep lots of dead money in!!

For this to be EV+'ve, you have to have the flop hit you hard. You have to hit a set, two-pair (be careful with low cards on this one (you are very vulnerable to being counterfeited if you don't fill-up), or a strong draw to the nut flush or str8 on the flop (oh, and if the pot is big enough, middle pair with two back-door draws to the nuts)!! You have to be careful/conservative even if you hit TPTK when multi-way/facing lots of action .. this is not a strong holding in this kind of situation (over-cards on 4th and 5th can kill your hand pretty quick). You have to be VERY disciplined, and know when to GTFO!!

When the flop does hit you hard, you also have to play aggressively (get lots of bets in there etc.), and apply various SSH techniques (use your position properly, buy outs with raises, go for over-calls where applicable, appropriate application of CR'ing etc.), to get the most out of these hands. Remember, in a sense, you have to pay yourself back for your pre-flop 'mistakes'!!

BTW, I personally do not do this all the time .. especially when I'm short-stacked or into my second buy-in (I rarely have to go into my second buy-in ... but sometimes it's inevitable ). I also don't like doing it as much when I've done quite well in my session so far. It sucks being up double or triple your inital buy-in, only to give it all back because you were too loose/the cards stop hitting.

This is not a good strategy for beginners .... You need to play well post-flop, you need a skill-edge over your opponents ... Otherwise, you are going to bleed away chips.

I also don't like this strategy when multi-tabling online. It takes focus and concentration to ensure you keep your post-flop mistakes to a minimum. Likewise, you have to focus on leveraging your pot-equity edge when you have one. Plus, when at a single table, particularly at the B&M, I find that you can't make enough money per hour just sitting there waiting for premium hands, you have to use your post-flop edge to your advantage and loosen up some pre-flop.

Last point ... at a tight or semi-tight table, where you don't have 2 or 3+ really loose/bad players under-writing your pre-flop "mistakes" ... this is a horrible strategy!! You have to be good at recognizing when the table texture changes and shifts. One new super loose aggressive player can change a whole table. When such a player leaves, and only more conservative ones are left, again the table can change significantly in just one hand.

BTW, this kind of thinking and play IS working for me at the B&M; I have the $$-results to give me the confidence that it is! Online & multi-tabling, I find that I have to play a tighter style.
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-23-2005, 11:52 PM #2 (permalink)  
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It is usually correct ot call here. Especially with the pocket pairs. The majority of the other players will probably call also, so you are getting the same immediate odds on your hand as if you had limped. Your implied odds also go up a little, since the pot will be large and more players will stay in with marginal holdings.
Obviously this is not true if a number of players to act behind you will fold. You also have to expect a reraise from the original raiser. You do not want to be in a pot for four bets with only 2 players who have better hands than you.
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Gatlin Dan
Old 03-24-2005, 01:53 AM #3 (permalink)  
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damn that's a long post. I will often call when it's two back to me with a mid pocket pair in very loose games. I sometimes call a cap with money already invested, it depends on how much money is already and likely going to be in the pot when all the preflop betting is done. I've noticed that a lot of players will drop on the flop to one or two small bets even if the pot is huge post-flop. This is a lot of dead money and worth seriosuly worth considering. With a three bet and a cap, you have to really watch the board. with so much preflop action, you are likely up against a much bigger pair and have to at least be aware that a set might lose to an overset. If there's a lot of dead money in the pot, I will not hesitate to see the flop. If it's capped and four or more seeing the flop plus extra dead money from people who called one or two and then folded, I'm seeing the flop even if it is capped.
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Room
Old 03-24-2005, 11:29 AM #4 (permalink)  
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If I'm up against a 3 bet and I've merely limped in early position with small pocket pairs, KQ, KJ, KT, even AJo or AT, I'm probably folding. Chances are the 3-better has a AA-JJ or AK-AJ. While you may find yourself folding a hand after investing one SB preflop, then seeing the preflop 3-better show down ATo, you have to just remember you made the right call and play the next hand. If someone has a tendency to 3-bet with marginal hands, you might try to cap if it looks like you can get it heads up. However, under most circumstances, I feel that in early position with marginal holdings, you could be easily dominated and will find yourself out of position to win yourself the maximum from you hand. Just to make up an example:

Say you hold KJ in EP, you limp, a caller or 2, a raise, a 3bet back to you, and all call. flop comes xxK. how do you play this? do you lead your hand, you may be easily dominated by KQ or AK. or the preflop raiser may raise to you, then check the turn, giving you the minimum. if you post-flop 3 bet back to him, and lead the turn, he may weakly call down with a better kicker or, even worse, raise his better kicker. I just dont see many of these marginal holdings having much value out of position like this.
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Tripps7
Old 03-24-2005, 01:25 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
If I'm up against a 3 bet and I've merely limped in early position with small pocket pairs, KQ, KJ, KT, even AJo or AT.
I hope these hands are suited. In tight games I am mucking KTs and sometimes KJs from EP. But I might be a little too tight - about 15% VP$IP.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-24-2005, 04:27 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
Say you hold KJ in EP, you limp, a caller or 2, a raise, a 3bet back to you, and all call. flop comes xxK. how do you play this?
I hate these situations in either live or online play. However, the live play I've experienced involves far looser play than online, so I might limp into a lappy crowd to see what flop I hit. With some weak raisers behind, I might still see a flop for two bets.

But I agree, this is a hand begging to be dominated or outdrawn, and being in EP exposes you to throwing away money. So often, I get outdrawn by dopes playing J9s from MP when their flush hits. I've started to play way more suited and suited connectors in these games, because of these wild and wooly draw-fests.

Speaking of which I need to get back to the B&M...it's been a while...
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-24-2005, 04:29 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripps7
I hope these hands are suited. In tight games I am mucking KTs and sometimes KJs from EP. But I might be a little too tight - about 15% VP$IP.
In B&M games? In really tough ones maybe. But 15% in typical live games is REALLY tight.
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Tripps7
Old 03-24-2005, 05:16 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripps7
I hope these hands are suited. In tight games I am mucking KTs and sometimes KJs from EP. But I might be a little too tight - about 15% VP$IP.
In B&M games? In really tough ones maybe. But 15% in typical live games is REALLY tight.
No only in tight, hard games. Most B&M games I play are looser (and more passive) than the party 2/4 game. I am limping all day with K10s and KJs in most B&M games, sometimes raising. I am guessing I am slightly over 20% in live games. In live games fish will stay in with any A-rag, suited cards, connectors or small pairs regardless of position. They see the flop and if doesn't hit they fold. If any part of the flop hits them they usually go to the river with 2nd or 3rd pair.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-24-2005, 07:45 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripps7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripps7
I hope these hands are suited. In tight games I am mucking KTs and sometimes KJs from EP. But I might be a little too tight - about 15% VP$IP.
In B&M games? In really tough ones maybe. But 15% in typical live games is REALLY tight.
No only in tight, hard games. Most B&M games I play are looser (and more passive) than the party 2/4 game.
Let's hope so. As of late....man, has it TAgged up a lot there.
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Tripps7
Old 03-24-2005, 08:13 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid

Let's hope so. As of late....man, has it TAgged up a lot there.
Where I play, on a Friday or Saturday night there's usually a list of fish 2 hours long waiting to get on a table. Half the time people don't even know how to play. Half of them get drunk while they are waiting. Its almost like poker heaven at times. There are a few TAggs floating around, most of us know who we are. If not, we usually are not hard to spot...
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RiverMonkey
Old 03-29-2005, 07:28 PM #11 (permalink)  
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It's really all about game texture. In 'Send in the Drunks on Friday/Saturday Nights' B&M games, where 8 out of ten players are playing 'any two cards' from out of position almost every hand, I want to see almost every flop (with the good implied odds/speculative hands I mentioned) , for almost any price (within reason of course; you gotta pick your spots). Like I said, from EP I'm WAY more selective even in these loose++++ games. (even maniacs can have you completely dominated and if you understand position at all you'll know that being dominated out of position sucks big time!). (Note also that from EP, you do have some position-afforded weapons in your arsenal, like using check-raising to maniacs to protect your hands. Of course, if the field in-between is not gonna fold for two-big bets, this weapon is blunted significantly )

When you aren't hitting cards, this strategy can be very expensive within any given session! But, over the long run, I still maintain that it's EV+'ve. That's why I mentioned the need for multiple buy-ins and comfort with the added variance.

Let me emphasize. You gotta be good at knowing when to GTFO and not get trapped too deep into these expensive hands. You end up folding out before the turn in MOST of the pots unless the flop hits you HARD! (Of course, if you only get a piece of the flop, but you are drawing to the nuts in a big pot, in the long-run, it's worth the investments you make even if you don't hit in any given pot.)

You have to be able to read the table as a whole and each player individually very well. Also, both of these can change in a heart-beat. One maniac entering or leaving game can change the game drastically.

Against a tight, slightly tight, or even slightly loose field, this strategy turns from EV+'ve to EV-'ve. But these game textures are very atypical on Friday or Saturday nights at the local B&M. Typically, during the week day nights, on a weekend day, or anytime when you are are playing against a field of decent players that are tight/slightly tight you CANNOT play this way; it's EV'-ve. You have be very good at knowing and reading your tables & customers!

Online, table-texture can change so quickly. Likewise, if you are multi-tabling you don't have time to keep tack of these important considerations and factors anyways. This strategy sucks in this context! You should just stick to playing TAG ABC poker.

Sorry for the long posts .... but I think all these considerations are important and worth discussing. (Besides I'm just trying to win the words per post contest ).
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-29-2005, 07:56 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Sorry for the long posts .... but I think all these considerations are important and worth discussing. (Besides I'm just trying to win the words per post contest ).
You've got my vote...

I agree on the table texture...you're actually psyching me up to get back to 2/4 at PTY and focus on this aspect. I'm clearing bonuses elsewhere now, but I might give it a shot shortly.
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