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How the hell do you play high underpairs?

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Pelion

07-29-2006, 12:02 PM Post subject: How the hell do you play high underpairs?

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Ive been dabling in limit again recently and I cant figure out how this works. Same situation gets me every time and im sure its a pretty massive leak.

I get TT-QQ and cap with an average loose - semipassive low stakes fish.

Flop comes Axx or Kxx and he leads.
Whats my plan? What are my options?

How about if there are 1 or 2 other callers?

How about if OOP?

I just need to know the sort of things to think about here. This situation is killing me.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

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arkitekton

07-29-2006, 09:40 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: canada

Posts: 269

This will have to be too brief, but in case it helps...

1) stop routinely capping. QQ-TT are not automatic capping hands--they're just not strong enough. KK-AA are strong enough. (You might consider that if the preflop is getting three bet, under normal circumstances you'll be up against, at worst, AKo. This means that at best you're not much better than about 57-43 for, and when you're up against AA or KK you're about 82-18 against.)

2) you'll go through stretches where QQ-TT simply get killed, so you'll need to look at the long run, whatever that might be. Your profit comes from flopping strong sets, from flops with no overcards, from the flop having overcards but not hitting an opponent, AND FROM NOT CALLING DOWN AGAINST BIGGER PAIRS/HANDS.

3) you might want to think of QQ-TT as a little like AK--they're great hands to be dealt, but they're very flop sensitive. (Far more so than AA or KK.)

4) if a typical opponent hears you raise preflop and bets into you when an A or K flops, try assuming you're beaten UNLESS the opponent has DEMONSTRATED they're loose/crazy/new. Keep in mind that if it didn't hit them, the big card on the board is at least as scary to them as it is to you. Let me put it another way-- if you're the big blind against a pf raiser from early position and you hold 98s, are you more likely to bet out/bluff on a flop of 742 rainbow, or A74 rainbow?

5) look at the texture of the rest of the flop. Are there two-flushes or straight draws your opponent might be semi-bluffing with? If not, the chances that your opponent has paired the top card increase.

6) metagame considerations at small stakes online poker are overrated--if you think you might be getting pegged as something you don't want to be pegged as, AND you think anyone is actually paying attention to your tendencies, AND is actually making use of that information, go find another table. Still, if the table is otherwise juicy, you may not want to be perceived as someone who can be bet off/bluffed off a pot by a single flop bet. You can TRY raising in these situations. I've had some luck saving a few bets this way--if you get reraised you can get out earlier than if you just check and call the whole way. Further, if your opponent calls your raise and bets into you on the turn anyway, it's extremely likely you're beaten. The exceptions are fairly obvious: maniacs, and newbies who think middle pair is the cat's ass. I believe that all of ONCE at small stakes I got an opponent to fold a better hand here. I had QQ, raised ep, opponent in the big blind called, the flop came K83 rainbow, he bet, I raised, he folded. Just a hunch, but with this tight, sensible play, I felt he had a weak king. Otherwise, your small stakes opponents will almost invariably call your flop raise, and call any bets thereafter. If you check the turn, they're fairly likely to bet the river.

7) over time look at your win perecentages and win rates with QQ-TT, maybe try a post asking for other peoples' numbers. If your win percentage is normal for these hands, but your win rate is low, it's very likely you're staying too long--the answer is probably to fold more when overcards and ugly flops come and you get bet at.

fwiw (over 12,000 hands):

Hand Occurrences Win pct Win rate (BB/100)
QQ 53 72 1.72
JJ 54 65 1.34
TT 51 41 0.24 (seems a little low...)

Best wishes on future flops.

Ragnar4

08-01-2006, 08:08 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

With QQ if someone leads into me when Axx rainbow or Kxx Rainbow, I like to get into a pissin' match rigth there on the flop.

He bets, I raise, lets say he re-raises that tells me some very pertinant info. The info with Axx on the board isn't much Different than Kxx on the board, but there are some minor differences. A re-raise with Axx screams top pair any kicker. A re-raise with Kxx screams top pair good kicker 2 pair or set, all of which are situations where you are WAY behind. Especially if you were raising with QQ and JJ and TT to lead off. But if he just calls, He has middle pair, bottom pair, or some pair lower than the king but higher than the XX. (hope that made sense). Anyway, what I'm saying is the flop is where you gather information with your premium hands, the turn is where you throw them away. There are times that justify throwing away your QQ on the flop when someone leads into you. Say when the flop comes QJT clubs, and he spills his beer, yells yahoo, starts throwining chips, his shirt, his pants, and yelling raise me I dare ya. Go ahead and feel free to muck your hand.

Raising with JJ and TT is very hard to justify. Simply because JJ 51ish% of the time will be outflopped by an A,K,or Q. and TT will be outflopped nearly 60% of the time. So these types of hands are "set camping hands" unless you have extremely good reads on your opponent.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

Kessler

08-03-2006, 06:06 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Raising with JJ and TT is very hard to justify. Simply because JJ 51ish% of the time will be outflopped by an A,K,or Q. and TT will be outflopped nearly 60% of the time. So these types of hands are "set camping hands" unless you have extremely good reads on your opponent.

JJ and TT are those kindof hands that I "force" myself to raise pre-flop. I usually grit my teeth at low-stakes live games and hope for a <10 flop. If a K Q or A hits the flop, and an EP bets, I'll probably raise it and go for a checkthrough turn and cheapshowdown river. (Assuming I am in LP, everyone checks to me and I get to "drive" for the hand.) If I get check-raised I'll re-evaluate, but this is my standard play.

-Kes

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

pokerlearner

08-03-2006, 06:34 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

I can only comment on Live game. You can cap QQ routinely (its too strong a hand to pass up the equity)...unless you have some strong read such as some player who you havent seen raise all night suddenly come up with a UTG raise or whatever.

10-10 is sometimes 3 betting hand sometimes cold calling hand for me. Its more of a cold calling hand for me if the table calls 3 bets fairly often and you cant make it HU or 3 way.

Axx flop is more easy to lay down against Kxx flop. In a raised pot, people are more likely to have that A instead of the K. so I tend to lay down more often in Axx flop than Kxx flop. I might raise and take a free card on the turn (most often you will get one because the person leading is worried about AA, KK and AK anyways).

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How the hell do you play high underpairs?

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