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how to detect when you have second best?

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11-21-2004, 07:06 PM Post subject: how to detect when you have second best?

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

i think most of our biggest losses is when we had second best hands. many people just say "ah well nothing you can do about that."

i think there has to be SOME way to tell...after all some of the pros get like 5bb/100 win rates! and one of the reasons are probably because they can lay down the second best hand very accurately.

just today, i was dealt pocket aces. someone raise preflop and i reraised, and someone calls cold and the raiser calls. the flop comes with KQ. blinded by my aces i continued to reraise. after a couple of reraises on the turn i figured i was behind, and i check called the river. they flopped 2 pair with KQ. instantly when i saw that flop i was thinking AQ and AK. i didn't think at all about KQ.

that was a very expensive hand.

same with sets vs sets. how do you know you flopped the lower set? would you play passive and just check call the rest of the way? or fight back? i seem to fight back way too often and it is costing me a lot of money.

any tips would be greatly appreciated.

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zenbitz

11-21-2004, 07:25 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

I think that if you get raised or worse, re-raised by a passive player, that usually means he has a hand. Every now and then, they will think YOU have nothing and bet at you with 2nd pair or even bluff!

This is why being aggressive masks the strength of your hand.

What kills me are not these guys - this is a fold or check/call depending on strength of read and my hand, but the guys who slow play TPTK or sets.

This is how being passive can mask the strength of your hand!

The thing is - if you have a monster, and you are aggressive (and get callers!) then you will win bigger pots (duh, this is basic poker).

LockLow34

11-21-2004, 11:02 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Ashburn, VA

Posts: 266

A few thoughts:

Quote:

i think most of our biggest losses is when we had second best hands. many people just say "ah well nothing you can do about that."

Sometimes there's not. But most of the time you should be able to analyze the situation and know whether to expect your cards to hold up or not. A lot of that ability just comes with experience, knowing your opponent, watching the betting, etc.

To me, a set-over-set situation would be MUCH more difficult to get away from than Aces.

When I make a LOT of 2nd best hands, it's usually because a) I'm playing WAY too loose preflop for the table I'm at, and b) because I'm not mentally prepared to play correct poker. Sometimes I'm even on tilt, just "hoping" something will hold up so I can get over a pot, and getting more and more frustrated when it's not happening.

AllinLife

11-22-2004, 03:34 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 530

simply put, you can't

"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen

a500lbgorilla

11-22-2004, 05:16 AM

#5 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Unless you can.

Yah, now you get it.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Underdog72

11-22-2004, 09:04 AM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 24

Call Ms. CLEO, she's pricy at $1.99 a minute, but think of what it pays playing at high stakes/NL tables.

Me Q,8s
Them 3h,3d
Flop Js,3c,10d

Me: "Ms. Cleo, will the river give me my gutshot?"
Ms. Cleo: "Yes child, the river will give your 9."

Flop betting,
Me: ALL IN!
Them: Call

Turn comes 3s
River comes 9d

Advice based on 4th street costs extra, but pay it!

mike4066

11-22-2004, 12:52 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2003

Posts: 1,943

Holding TP/TK or the Over pair, and being raised on the turn.

Very few low limit holdem players are capable of raising the turn as a bluff. When you get raised on the turn wiht TP or an Overpair, this is the time to consider folding.
People will call it weak tight, but without a read you won't go broke. In limit Holdem TP doesn't look so good when facing a turn raise.

How about the over pair? Lets say your new to the table and don't have a read.
Your Holding AA, You bet the flop, someone raises you, you 3 bet, they cap it. How many players can cap a flop with less than 2 pair? Very few at these low levels are so aggressivethey do that. IF you have someone who caps TP Preflop then keep playing against him.

But lets go past that to the turn. So Someone caps preflop, you lead out on the turn, You get raised.
IF THERE WAS EVER A SIGN YOUR HAND IS NO GOOD THIS IS IT!

2 things I like to try and remember.. the second ofwhich I haven't been applying as much as I should.

You job at the table is *NOT* TO be the table sheriff, catch the bluffers, "well comeone had to call to keep him honest" Let someone else do it. Your there to make money, CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR!

a500lbgorilla

11-22-2004, 03:43 PM

#8 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

He meant:

Your job at the table is *not* to be the table sheriff.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

kidpoker22

11-23-2004, 02:23 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: D-Town

Posts: 43

I the games I play the rule of thumb, not not universally applicable, is...a check/raise on the turn means that one pair is no good". It's easy to get away from second best hands. It's a matter of observation. If someone quickly three-bet your raise on the flop then you should expect them to hold two pair, maybe better. Call the flop if you don't improve on the turn dump it. Of course, this varies depending on who you're playing. Also, against better players, raises on the flop don't neccesarily mean as much as the do in middle limit games--games with limits between $2/4 and $5/10. Peoples true colors come out on the turn.

KP22

mike4066

11-23-2004, 04:14 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2003

Posts: 1,943

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

He meant:

Your job at the table is *not* to be the table sheriff.

-'rilla

oops damn typo thanks rilla

Fnord

11-24-2004, 12:20 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike4066

Very few low limit holdem players are capable of raising the turn as a bluff. When you get raised on the turn wiht TP or an Overpair, this is the time to consider folding.
People will call it weak tight, but without a read you won't go broke. In limit Holdem TP doesn't look so good when facing a turn raise.

Depends on the pot size, board, player, number of other players, position, etc but I call some of these down. Often you have more than 3-5 outs and it's good to show you won't laydown too easily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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