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Aladdin
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08-28-2005, 06:20 AM
Post subject: How to deal with tricky fish?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7
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I've recently moved up from 0.25-0.5 to 0.5-1, and while I can see there are still lots of fish in the sea, I'm having a few troubles taking their money.
I haven't played enough hands to be sure, but I think I'm running a bit cold as well (Never had a session winning more than 5-10% of hands, and often those were steals) or very small pots.
I know I'm supposed to be aggressive but I keep running into problems. For example, I understand that it's normally a bad idea to slowplay trips, because there tends to be some kind of draw lurking. So I keep losing with hands like TPTK (which I bet aggressively) to people hiding trips, or who pair their weak kicker on the turn. So they may be losing money by not betting trips, but they're losing it to the guy playing 34s UTG rather than to me. Often these are 3-4-5 way pots we're talking about, so should I be much more careful in these situations?
Also, am I playing too many hands? I tend to fold about 70% preflop, but perhaps I should tighten up? Should I stop playing stuff like K8s or K9o on the button? And if I do, should I play them when there are few callers or lots of callers? Any advice appreciated.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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The pots are probably so big that you could never laydown a big pair nor ever steal/defend a blind and still walk away a pretty big winner.
You sound like you're playing too loose pre-flop, although that's a hard one to gauge without a 1k sample of hands.
Focus on tightening up and playing well post-flop. If it was easy...
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OK, play only the BEST offsuit hands. K9o is absolute junk. It may only be worth calling from the small blind, and even then I will probably fold it. Bad kicker, bad connectedness, bad high card strength, no suitedness.
Now K8s is played for basically the suitedness if you have position. Catching two pair is also acceptable :O
Remember a backdoor flush draw on the flop is worth around 1.5 outs and you're going to get it fairly often. That increases the value of your hand at least 25%
Maybe your hand would win 15% against six other people offsuit, but now it will win 20% of the time because of the 5% flush chance. (a little less than the 6% it happens because you're not going to play a backdoor draw every time)
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Aladdin
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7
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Quote:
Remember a backdoor flush draw on the flop is worth around 1.5 outs and you're going to get it fairly often. That increases the value of your hand at least 25%
Maybe your hand would win 15% against six other people offsuit, but now it will win 20% of the time because of the 5% flush chance. (a little less than the 6% it happens because you're not going to play a backdoor draw every time)
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A backdoor flush draw means two to a flush right? What do you mean by 1.5 outs? Does that mean you should call 1 bet on the flop from late position with, say Kc8c on a Kh9c4h board? What if the board is 8h4c2d? Or if the 8 is only second pair?
Sorry if these seem like stupid questions! But I still feel fairly clueless after the flop, and take 'aggressive' to mean 'bet with any kind of a hand regardless of how many opponents you're up against'!
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aladdin
A backdoor flush draw means two to a flush right? What do you mean by 1.5 outs? Does that mean you should call 1 bet on the flop from late position with, say Kc8c on a Kh9c4h board? What if the board is 8h4c2d? Or if the 8 is only second pair?
Sorry if these seem like stupid questions! But I still feel fairly clueless after the flop, and take 'aggressive' to mean 'bet with any kind of a hand regardless of how many opponents you're up against'!
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Backdoor is three to something. If you flop two to something, you're not going to get it since there are only 2 more cards to come.  I rivered 4 to the flush!
Both of your hand examples are worth betting. I believe the second one is worth raising. If the flop is something like Qh 8s 3c then you've pretty much got crap in a multiway pot. heads up it's ok.
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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Aladdin
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7
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Quote:
Backdoor is three to something. If you flop two to something, you're not going to get it since there are only 2 more cards to come. Laughing I rivered 4 to the flush!
Both of your hand examples are worth betting. I believe the second one is worth raising. If the flop is something like Qh 8s 3c then you've pretty much got crap in a multiway pot. heads up it's ok.
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Come on, I'm not that stupid. By two to a flush i meant two cards required for a flush, i.e. 3 of one suit. What is meant by 1.5 outs though?
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The pots are probably so big that you could never lay down a big pair nor ever steal/defend a blind and still walk away a pretty big winner.
You sound like you're playing too loose pre-flop, although that's a hard one to gauge without a 1k sample of hands.
Focus on tightening up and playing well post-flop. If it was easy...
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I agree, at anything even up to 2/4 maybe some 3/6 you can play pretty ABC for the most part, unless you have a table full of sharks there is no reason to get extremely cute... 1/2 you'll get into stealing and blind defense some but it really comes into play at 2/4... I’ve noticed the extreme difference between .5/1 and 2/4 it's interesting and mind boggling... In your case I would probably play WLLHE at 0.25/0.50 and 0.5/1 and come away a big winner... I played that way and mad i think 3.25bb/100 at .5/1 playing like 12-15% vp$ip...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aladdin
Quote:
Backdoor is three to something. If you flop two to something, you're not going to get it since there are only 2 more cards to come. Laughing I rivered 4 to the flush!
Both of your hand examples are worth betting. I believe the second one is worth raising. If the flop is something like Qh 8s 3c then you've pretty much got crap in a multiway pot. heads up it's ok.
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Come on, I'm not that stupid. By two to a flush i meant two cards required for a flush, i.e. 3 of one suit. What is meant by 1.5 outs though? |
Two flush doesn't mean that :P
An out is a card you can catch to win the pot. If there are two cards to come, it's a card or TWO cards you can catch.
So if you have to catch 6 cards with two cards to come, you have 24% to win. But if you have a backdoor flush, you have slightly higher chance to win than if you had 7 outs, but lower than if you had 8. So we say you have 7.5 outs to win. So the backdoor flush added 1.5 outs for you.
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