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Chopper

10-24-2008, 03:51 PM Post subject: how common is this?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

nevermind the fact i suck at omaha8. i am only sort of trying to learn. but, it seemed to me that there almost no chance of the splitting lo being in here with me. am i wrong?

i only played this hand because of all the lo cards and the chance the A flops. however, on the flop i had 4 outs to boat, others to a str8, and a working (albeit crappy) lo. turn gave off the A, and with the 3 also countered, how often is 42 out? arent i correct to try for value given that i also have outs to scoop with the boat?

sadly, i dont know if splitting the lo here was unlucky or standard. i felt 42 was rare here.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3

, 6

, 4

, 2

.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 3

, 6

, T

(7 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A

(4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11.50 BB) T

(3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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TLR

10-26-2008, 07:30 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 5,007

TLR is an unknown quantity at this point

Your preflop call is marginal but with 3 limpers I think it is OK.

However the flop is a fold, you have bottom two pair, even if you hit your boat it is not guaranteed to be the best boat, your straight is not good with a flush out there (side note - drawing to the low end of the str8 is usually not a good move in O8), basically you are drawing to an A for 1/2 the pot.

I would just call the turn, SB bets the flop and the turn, you have to put him on a made flush, so at best you are getting half the pot, you are not going to get any other 24 to fold, so you want people in the pot.

When both checked on the river I think it is OK to bet, the SB is definitly calling (we assume he has the flush and did not bet because of possible boat. UTG+1 may have 24 but may also be calling with 25, a worse flush etc

Chopper

10-26-2008, 04:12 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

I would just call the turn, SB bets the flop and the turn, you have to put him on a made flush, so at best you are getting half the pot, you are not going to get any other 24 to fold, so you want people in the pot.

i can see the pf call being marginal, but i think it sucks, tbh. in games this loose/passive, i guess it can have value, but surely its a bad habit to start.

flop is weak, but i tend to do this at the lowest stakes when trying to learn the flow and overall strength of holdings. my roll is nowhere in danger to play dozens of hands this way, and i tend to think better when i am IN a hand, not just watching. thats why the 2/4c game.

i knew it wasnt great, but it kept my attention because i felt i could get value from the miracle A if it fell. maybe a 3 or 6, too. granted, there may be a higher boat out.

when the A fell, i felt since there were 3 players in there, i could raise for value because at worst i was splitting with the high. i couldnt fathom another 42 being involved. i felt i was putting of someone else's dead money in the pot the vast majority of the time. i felt the other two had to be fighting for the hi.

but, i guess i should just assume people are always holding the nut lo? A2/A3 i can see that being the case, but the 24 threw me off for sure.

thanks for the comments.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

TLR

10-26-2008, 05:48 PM

#4 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 5,007

I assumed the money means little to you in those stakes but from a pure hand analysis your flop call was bad. Drawing for a single card for 1/2 the pot is bad, especially since with so many people in the pot you can assume a couple of aces are gone.

Regarding your specific question about 24. I agree that splitting the low with 24 is less common then A2 or A3, but it is definitly possible. This is because hands like A24 are pretty common, becuase they give low protection if your A or 2 is counterfeighted.
If you are going for 1/2 the pot you want the pot to be multiway, raising the turn is not a good move IMO for the following reasons
1. assuming SB has a flush if he raises he will scare off the 3rd player
2. If a 2 or 4 hits on the river your hand has lost a lot of value, since you are only getting 1/2 a bet for every bet you put in the risk/reward ratio is not worth it
3. you do have to factor in the chance you will get quartered.

Chopper

10-26-2008, 06:47 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

agreed and understood. thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

Regarding your specific question about 24. I agree that splitting the low with 24 is less common then A2 or A3, but it is definitly possible. This is because hands like A24 are pretty common, becuase they give low protection if your A or 2 is counterfeighted.

again, thank you for explaining this a bit further. A23 is an obviously playable starting hand, from a protection standpoint, but i didnt think about A24 being possible...i have no idea why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

If you are going for 1/2 the pot you want the pot to be multiway, raising the turn is not a good move IMO for the following reasons
1. assuming SB has a flush if he raises he will scare off the 3rd player

didnt think of it this way. you are right. i was just going for value......putting the "fish spotlight" on myself down here...lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

2. If a 2 or 4 hits on the river your hand has lost a lot of value, since you are only getting 1/2 a bet for every bet you put in the risk/reward ratio is not worth it

again, something i had not thought enough about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

3. you do have to factor in the chance you will get quartered.

let me ask just one more question. since redraws are so common in Omaha, are we betting/raising to protect when we have the current nut hands and hoping they hold? or, i assume, we should be better at recognizing equity and jamming only when we have the most equity?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

TLR

10-26-2008, 07:11 PM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 5,007

O8 has it weird spots because of the split pots, quarting and redraws, it takes a while to get used to, and I am by no means an expert in this game, post hands, it is the fastest way to catch up IMO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

This is a part of the game I have a lot of trouble with to
As you can guess it depends, I will try to throw in some pointers
1. Dont jam when you only get 1/2 the pot, if you have T9KK on a 678 board play it passively
2. Types of draw and number of players is a major factor, if you have 23Tjo and the board is KQ9 2 hearts wait for the turn, and heart or any card 9-A is bad for you, if you have the same hand on a 89Q rainbow board you can bet and raise
3. # of opp and position are major factors to consider

bigspenda73

10-26-2008, 07:32 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

You really need to think more about reverse implied odds in split pot games

Chopper

10-26-2008, 07:57 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

1. Dont jam when you only get 1/2 the pot, if you have T9KK on a 678 board play it passively

dont think of me as argumentative...it isnt meant that way. i can be a little slow on the uptake at times.

this scenario i get because the boat is likely out there...and the lo.

but, if we have the nuts and there are 3+ players in there, shouldnt we jam it? i know we may catch a bad card and need to slow down, or even fold, but dont we make money, even in split pots, when we hold a nut hand? (provided we dont get quartered, in which case some scenarios are much more likely than others...like when holding A2.)

and, i suck at reverse implieds in HE, much less Omaha. thats a huge area demanding some work right now.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

TLR

10-27-2008, 05:48 AM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 5,007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

1. Dont jam when you only get 1/2 the pot, if you have T9KK on a 678 board play it passively

there are a few reasons I think jamming it is incorrect
1. Made low are freerolling you, they can hit their runner-runner boat and backdoor flushes
2. If the pot is jammed with 4 players in the pot you probably have someone with the same high hand as you do, but he may be freerolling you with something like 9TJx or 789T (both are bad hands to play in this game BTW)
3. Since you are only getting 1/2 the pot I think it is better to wait for a relatively safe turn before we pot a lot of money in the pot

10-27-2008, 10:43 AM

#10 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I've never played this game. Flop is terrible, you're bad for the high, you're bad for the low. You're the guy who gives the low and high player a reason to bet.

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