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davfagan
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09-11-2004, 09:36 PM
Post subject: How to beat low limit ring games?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Warren, MI
Posts: 184
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Is there any way to beat a low limit ring game like .05/.10 NL? People will limp with almost anything. So if you get lucky in the BB with like 52o and the flop comes with two fives, you can't even play it since the guy with 59s that limped is of course going to play? Maybe it's just smarter to avoid these games, but at what point to people play smart, since I've seen this same sort of play in .10/.25 and .25/.50? Yea, I know you should enjoy that guy playing 59s, but I always seem to get screwed in ring games, never been able to be profitable in them.
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AllinLife
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 530
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NL or LHE
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"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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I've found the best weapon against a micro limit NLHE or LHE is simply to have great patience. Here's what I have done in these situations:
1. Top pair top kicker really does not play well against a large field. If flush or straight cards fall and you are getting raised - if you call you will usually be looking at the goods.
2. With so many calling stations, the value of suited connectors goes WAY up as you will always have proper pot odds on your straight and flush draws.
3. I limit raising pre flop to only the BEST hands in these games, unless I am in EP. Once micro limit players have money in the pot, it is hard to get them to fold. Raising hands like KQ, JJ, or QQ can be fruitless. If in EP, then I raise more hands than I usually would from this position to thin out the field. Especially in limit, there usually is no point in raising from LP unless you have AK, AA, KK in my opinion.
These strategies that i use mostly apply to micro LHE games when the flop % is 55 or above.
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davfagan
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Straight
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Warren, MI
Posts: 184
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I'm talking about NL, it just seems that too many people see the flop with crap. I can see the point about not raising unless you have great cards in late position. Maybe I just play too tight aggressive. I wouldn't be upset if I was doing badly in all forms of poker, but I'm just running Sit & Go's. I've only been sticking with those on Poker Stars. I decided to try Full Tilt though since they were giving a 100% bonus, however I didn't know that playing SNGs and MTTs didn't count towards getting the bonus. So since I suck at ring games, I'm never going to unlock any of my bonus, which sucks.
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"Why does this still seem like gambling to you!?"
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MrSimon
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6
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I play $.01/.02 NL ring games on Ultimate Bet. Yes, people call with junk ... but patience, discipline, and a little more patience WILL pay off. I play two tables at a time and just wait for something to come my way. It works evey time ... the ONLY times I leave one of those tables with less than my buy-in is when I screw up and call when I know I should fold. Good tight/aggresive play will win you money consistently .... granted, I've only won $14 over the three weeks I've been playing .... but for me thats pretty good.
Also .... if I get over $5 in front of me (2$ max buy-in) I loosen up .... more often than not, post-flop, I can get people to fold to me if I bet more than they have ..... of course, my policy is to only do that on a semi-bluff ..... I never cold bluff ..... don't need to if you are patient.
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MrSimon
the ONLY times I leave one of those tables with less than my buy-in is when I screw up and call when I know I should fold.
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You never get caught in a KK vs AA situation?
You never push with the near nuts to find someone has the nuts?
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Ditto that. I lost 2 buy-ins in a row at .5/1 once. Against lots of bad players at once you're just going to take some nasty swings.
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AllinLife
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 530
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low stakes no limit game, wait for
A9+ (since people play ax at this level, this isn't so bad, but you gotta
lay it down to agression)
78s+
all PP's
KJ etc
look to flop set with all pp's, call min bets or whatever justifies it..(usually no more then 10% of pot)
TPTK= bet pot unless 3 suited/ straight friendly
basically make people call for incorrect odds, have patience.
I found during days of playing NL, you win much more when you are the
one betting, and when calling, you will usually lose. so try to get that through your head. keep betting TPTK, but fold to unusual agression.
anotherthing, when you flop a set and board is 3 to suit, try to stay in til river for reasonable amout of bets because you might hit fullhouse/ quads 22% (am i right) of the time, and when you do, you can milk them for all their money.
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"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AllinLife
A9+ (since people play ax at this level, this isn't so bad, but you gotta
lay it down to agression)
78s+
all PP's
KJ etc
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Too loose unless you're pretty good. Playing more tables is higher +EV, although adding some hands will make you a better long term player.
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AllinLife
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 530
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what fnord said.
I am amazed at how tight poker stars 1/2cent 5$ NL tables are,
some have 29% flops seen!! and people actually fold to pot sized bets of
10 cents. Check out pradise poker's 2$ NL tables, it's pretty fun to play
there, bonus code GRANNY for 50% deposit bonus.
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"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen
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davfagan
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Straight
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Warren, MI
Posts: 184
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AllinLife
low stakes no limit game, wait for
A9+ (since people play ax at this level, this isn't so bad, but you gotta
lay it down to agression)
78s+
all PP's
KJ etc
look to flop set with all pp's, call min bets or whatever justifies it..(usually no more then 10% of pot)
TPTK= bet pot unless 3 suited/ straight friendly
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I'm not sure what you do at a "normal" NL game, but isn't this common sense to play this way. This is how I play, and how I'm getting beat. Doesn't matter, the SNGs have been making me a profit, so I'm not even going to bother with ring games anymore, anywhere.
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"Why does this still seem like gambling to you!?"
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Tempo Gain
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09-12-2004, 04:55 PM
Post subject: Re: How to beat low limit ring games?
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#12 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by davfagan
Is there any way to beat a low limit ring game like .05/.10 NL? People will limp with almost anything. So if you get lucky in the BB with like 52o and the flop comes with two fives, you can't even play it since the guy with 59s that limped is of course going to play? Maybe it's just smarter to avoid these games, but at what point to people play smart, since I've seen this same sort of play in .10/.25 and .25/.50? Yea, I know you should enjoy that guy playing 59s, but I always seem to get screwed in ring games, never been able to be profitable in them.
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i've been doing it lately. avoid the iffy situations, be patient and wait until you have the nuts or the odds are strongly in your favor. most of these players are not bluffers and you will be able to spot those who are pretty quickly. some yokel who just wandered onto the table will think you're bluffing him and be ready to throw his fresh stack at your nut hand after you just folded 30 straight hands though.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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so far i only play 5/10 micro at royal vegas. and yes lots of limpers. i have profited over 40 dollars in the past 2 weeks. which is good for me cuz i started off with their free $10.
anywho, they aren't bluffers. if you have top pair with good kicker, and someone goes all in. don't call. i swear every time i do it someone has a trip or flush or something. it's brutal.
granted, it is very possible to profit. like others have mentioned, patience is key. tilt can screw you over so badly you wouldn't know what happened. so keep that in check.
EDIT: avoid royal vegas SnGs, at any limit. everyone starts with 1000, and blinds start at 10/20, most of the time blinds will kill you do like 800 before you get anything playable.
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stevedonel
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Vegas
Posts: 617
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by davfagan
Doesn't matter, the SNGs have been making me a profit, so I'm not even going to bother with ring games anymore, anywhere.
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I aggree 100%, ring games are much harder to beat. But I have found that in the long run, if you learn to play them properly, your profits will be much higher in the ring games. I am still in a learning phase of the ring games myself, but on my winning ring sessions, my ROI is much higher than SnGs. The varience is higher though, I'm working to increase the winning session %.
A guy from my home game has found the ring games much more profitable than SnGs for himself. He plays on party several hours a day, making $500 some days, losing $300 others. Overall he shows a good profit though, enough that he hasn't started looking for work (does that make him a pro? whatever). And he is still a very good tournament player.
Personally, I will continue my dominating run of $5-20 SnG games, while learning to beat ring games at the lower levels and moving up as I see fit. Lately Ive been playing 5¢/10¢ NL on stars, I'm just over breaking even. Party's 50¢/$1 limit tables have been showing me a little profit; earlier I cashed out all I had there, then they gave me $10, now I'm seeing what I can turn it into. I will switch over to party NL as soon as the BR allows, because I hate limit.
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Is that guy still part of the forum??
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rdu steve
I aggree 100%, ring games are much harder to beat. But I have found that in the long run, if you learn to play them properly, your profits will be much higher in the ring games. I am still in a learning phase of the ring games myself, but on my winning ring sessions, my ROI is much higher than SnGs. The varience is higher though, I'm working to increase the winning session %.
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In a ring games, as you play out slimmer and slimmer +EV positions, both your win rate and variance go up.
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Autocratic
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 70
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That's why I only play SnG games. I'm just a lot more successful. And since I don't need oodles of money, the profit is just fine for me (I started playing $5 + 1 a week ago, 1-2 games a day, and I've finished out of the money twice). My talent lies pretty much only in tournament games.
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allLiving
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 799
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Autocratic
That's why I only play SnG games. I'm just a lot more successful. And since I don't need oodles of money, the profit is just fine for me (I started playing $5 + 1 a week ago, 1-2 games a day, and I've finished out of the money twice). My talent lies pretty much only in tournament games.
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I used to be the same way until I saw the light and realized that cash games are boatloads of profits, begging to be plucked.
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PocketFives - allLiving
Pokerstars - [595-ESCAPE]
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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That's always going to be a problem at microlimit games. It's so inexpensive to play. People will take chances with just about anything. And if you take them. Bang, they just reload. So since the blinds are so low I just wait for the premium hands and play aggressive when I get them.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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This question is being talked about a lot in this thread, but I can't tell if a consensus has been reached..
What has higher variance: ring games or SNGs?
What has higher ROI: ring games or SNGs?
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheNatural
This question is being talked about a lot in this thread, but I can't tell if a consensus has been reached..
What has higher variance: ring games or SNGs?
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What has higher ROI: ring games or SNGs?[/quote]
the consensus i've gotten from ftr is higher variance AND ROI in ring games.
obviously, very player specific.
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i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
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BoondockSaint
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,844
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Well I myself have just played mainly ring games because I just think I make more money faster but obviously I'm not sure if this is true since I havent played in too many SNGs. I think my average on NL25-50 ring games is about 10-12 bucks an hour somewhere over my most recent couple months of play and that seems good for me and I figure why change a good thing. The big big money is in the tourneys though so I would really like to start working on that. The MTTs are where the moneys at (just ask mike) I just cant see spending 50-500 bucks or more and having to get through like 600 or more people. Maybe when I get a huge bank roll I'll start practicing more with those.
just depends on skill there is no right or wrong answer
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