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rmariani
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07-15-2005, 01:16 AM
Post subject: How bad was this fold?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 117
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Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , Q .
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold.
Flop: (9 SB) J , A, 3 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 raises, Hero folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.
Turn: (6.50 BB) 6 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, UTG+1 calls.
River: (8.50 BB) 6 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, UTG+1 calls.
Final Pot: 10.50 BB
Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Td Ad (two pair, aces and sixes).
MP3 has As 8s (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 5.25 BB. MP3 wins 5.25 BB.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I'm so raising a non-heart turn.
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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This is a situation i see a lot, you have top pair and it's 2 betted around to you on the flop, the first one being the initial pf raiser. I think it's correct to 3-bet this for information. the 2nd raise could just be a middle pair check raise to test the pre flop raiser.
However the 3 hearts were scary and you could definitely be almost drawing dead... i don't blame the fold, but I think you have to raise instead of call so you know what to do on the turn
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ender555
However the 3 hearts were scary and you could definitely be almost drawing dead... i don't blame the fold, but I think you have to raise instead of call so you know what to do on the turn
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Why would you want to 3-bet here? A flush draw is more inclined to jam with both 2 cards to come and smaller bet sizes.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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I agree, I don't like a 3-bet on the flop here.
If you really think there's a good chance that you have the best hand and you've decided that you are not going to fold, then I think your best play is to smooth call the flop, and then raise the turn. You WANT'/NEED a safe card on the turn, so even if you are ahead on the flop, you are better off not pushing that small edge but waiting for the turn and what you hope will be a bigger edge.
For me, the more interesting question is: Do you muck or continue with the hand on the flop. With flops/situations like this, you really need to take step back on the flop and decide what you think the bet-raise sequence in front of you means. Obviously if you are up against two rocks, and the pot is small you are probably going to muck your AQ on the flop. If you are up against two maniacs that you know will both make plays at this pot with a lone high heart in their hand, then your best play is to smooth call the flop and raise the turn. If the raiser is a conservative/str8-forward player that shows no fear of the made flush, then you gotta ask whether or not you think they've already got it or not. Of course, there' is a class of players that will never raise their flush on the flop in this sitiuation, and will generally try for the CR on the turn to trap their opponents for more bets; so perhaps you think this raise is just designed to protect a weaker ace than yours. The bottom line is that you've gotta get a read on and/or know your opponents to help you decide how to proceed on the flop. Without a favourable read, I don't think you are giving up too much by folding on this flop in smaller pots but in bigger ones, you are probably losing out if you bail too often. Given that this specific pot is 4-way and raised before the flop, it does fit the SSH criteria for 'big pot'.
Fnord, is there a certain threshold pot size and/or (set of) situation(s) where you'd be more inclined to muck your strong pair of aces to a 3-flush flop? Interestingly, what if the pot was even more multi-way on the flop? Would you want the pot to offer you even larger odds to continue in order to out-weigh the increased chance that one of your opponents has you beat or will have you beat by the river?
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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A flopped flush is betting/raising the flop close to never especially at .5/1. I'm way more worried about UTG's flop check than the other guys betting and raising. I'm going to assume I'm ahead on the flop and 3-bet and very VERY afraid if UTG doesn't fold. I'm also likely getting the hell out if I can't get it heads-up and a 4th heart falls.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ender555
However the 3 hearts were scary and you could definitely be almost drawing dead... i don't blame the fold, but I think you have to raise instead of call so you know what to do on the turn
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Why would you want to 3-bet here? A flush draw is more inclined to jam with both 2 cards to come and smaller bet sizes. |
So let him. 3 or 4 way, assuming you are ahead on the flop, you benefit more from a flush draw jamming the pot than he does, at the expense of whoever else sticks around.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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A10Chief
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 285
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
A flopped flush is betting/raising the flop close to never especially at .5/1. I'm way more worried about UTG's flop check than the other guys betting and raising. I'm going to assume I'm ahead on the flop and 3-bet and very VERY afraid if UTG doesn't fold. I'm also likely getting the hell out if I can't get it heads-up and a 4th heart falls.
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If I flop a flush, I'm betting it hard at .5/1. Why not bet it?
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There's three types of people in the world...those who can count, and those who can't.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by A10Chief
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
A flopped flush is betting/raising the flop close to never especially at .5/1. I'm way more worried about UTG's flop check than the other guys betting and raising. I'm going to assume I'm ahead on the flop and 3-bet and very VERY afraid if UTG doesn't fold. I'm also likely getting the hell out if I can't get it heads-up and a 4th heart falls.
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If I flop a flush, I'm betting it hard at .5/1. Why not bet it? |
The average player, and especially the average micro player, will not deviate from "slowplay any hand better than one pair."
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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