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How bad was this chasing till river ??

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pokerlearner

05-30-2006, 06:34 PM Post subject: How bad was this chasing till river ??

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

$8-$16 B&M at the Hawaiian gardens:

Game is very loose. Lots of cold callers, loose callers almost every hand. always 5-6 people to the flop without a raise or 4-5 people to the pot in a raised pot. UTG+1 is the chip donator at the table.

1) Kill Pot $16-$32
Hero is Js-10s UTG.

Hero calls, UTG+1 raises,UTG+2 3bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls,CO calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 caps, UTG+1 calls,MP1 calls, MP2 calls,CO calls, BB calls, Hero calls

Flop: 7c-8s-8d (so i flop a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls

Turn: 7c-8s-8d-Jd
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls

River: 7c-8s-8d-Jd-9c
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls.

UTG+1 shows KK, UTG+2 shows AA before folding. MP2 shows A-10

Hero and MP2 split the pot.

Question 1: On a scale of 1-10 with 1 being horrible and 10 being great how bad was my play ?? I think prelfop it was 3. I shouldnt have played a kill pot with J-10s UTG.

Question 2: After my horrible preflop play, the pot was so huge, i felt that i had to stay till the river regardless of what fell (unless it was another 8 !!) . i mean pot was 14 BB preflop !! Correct ?

Question 3: I put both UTG+1 and UTG+2 on overpairs. So if i dont catch the 9 on the river and say I catch the 10 or a blank. I should definitely fold right ? even on that huge monster pot, because the way the action went, there is no way my 2 pair is good there ? or should i still call the river ?

I did play very loosely preflop on this hand which was bad but to make myself clear, i was folding J-Qo, K-10o, out of position and playing them from CO or button in unraised pot. For some reason I played this one, I do think i have started a love affair with J-10s which may be developing as a bit of a leak

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Fnord

05-30-2006, 06:42 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I probably dump this pre-flop to the 3-bet, then again when facing 2 cold on the flop. But the pot is so out of control I don't think the flop is a big error and pre-flop is just gamble. Is JTs a hand you want to play 5-way capped in this game?

I'm also tempted to check/raise that turn. It's a fucking huge pot and I'm going to over-play my hand in that spot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Xanadu

05-30-2006, 06:49 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

I don't have any problems with this hand. Your preflop play might be bad, but that totally depends on the table. If it's a table where people like to gambool on a kill hand, go for it, but if they tighten way up on the kill hand, probably a bad idea. As for calling the river with jacks and tens, the pot is so big, I wouldn't call it a big mistake if it is a mistake at all. chances are probably good enough noone has a Q that you win the few percent of the time you need to justify a call.

pokerlearner

05-30-2006, 06:52 PM Post subject: Fnord

#4 (permalink)

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Location: california

Posts: 366

Thanks for your comments and thoughts and I DO agree fully to what you are trying to say. I would like to add a thought here though.
I would have NEVER called a raise or called a 3bet with J-10s if i was MP1----->Button. I ONLY called the 3 bet, because 4 other people called it after my initial mistake.

Here is my question, and maybe i already know the answer (meaning I got extremely lucky and should stay the hell out of those sticky situations of playing with marginal hands with 2 raisers !!).

1) 5 people called the 3 bet.
2) I do know its going to be capped so essentially i will be playing a 7-way pot with just a drawing hand.
3) If i keep doing that I probably would go BUSTO

. so it was probably a very bad move. (hehe kinda intersting that i answered my own question in 3rd comment while typing this post).

so would you have still called with J-10s based on my 2 points above (just for sake or argument lets assume you made the unlikely mistake of limping UTG with J-10s.)

Its just that I am not bragging or anything, but i just felt that there were some amazingly bad players at the table, and i was going to get paid off big if i flopped a good draw or hand (in contrast to the crappy draw i had this hand...).

Fnord

05-30-2006, 07:01 PM

#5 (permalink)

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If it's a tight 3-bet, I would just dump it.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 14.5849 % 14.02% 00.56% { JTs }
Hand 2: 45.8822 % 45.63% 00.26% { QQ+ }
Hand 3: 13.2008 % 12.50% 00.70% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 4: 13.1773 % 12.48% 00.70% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 5: 13.1548 % 12.46% 00.70% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 18.8751 % 18.13% 00.75% { JTs }
Hand 2: 38.1011 % 37.40% 00.70% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 14.3534 % 13.50% 00.86% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 4: 14.3670 % 13.51% 00.85% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 5: 14.3034 % 13.45% 00.86% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }

My guess is the guys calling 3-bets cold are running better hands than this too (more like 10-20% instead of the 50% I gave them), further cutting into your equity.

Per post-flop equity concerns, you're going to have to play this fast and showdown pairs by virtue of the pot size. Also, an out of control kill pot tends to put people all-in pretty fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerlearner

05-30-2006, 07:11 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

wow...thanks for the equity chart..I am in worse shape than i thought

.....those numbers are definitely sobering...

elipsesjeff

05-30-2006, 08:39 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Is JTs a hand you want to play 5-way capped in this game?

Interesting equity charts, before looking at them I would have said hell yes but now i'm more of an 'yeah probably, definately in position and after I already have money in the pot I have odds to call'

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Fnord

05-30-2006, 08:47 PM

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It's so hard not to burst out in laughter when people at the table tell me with a straight face that QQ+ doesn't play well multi-way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

chardrian

05-30-2006, 09:55 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's so hard not to burst out in laughter when people at the table tell me with a straight face that QQ+ doesn't play well multi-way!

That's because most people focus on the over 50% they are losing and fail to realize that their winrate could/should be much higher if they were playing QQ+ better both preflop and postflop.

euphoricism

05-30-2006, 10:34 PM

#10 (permalink)

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And the fact that in multi way pots people are more likely to hold Aces and Kings in their hands and there are significantly less outs available against QQ.

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elipsesjeff

05-30-2006, 11:13 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's so hard not to burst out in laughter when people at the table tell me with a straight face that QQ+ doesn't play well multi-way!

Yeah, JJ is very similar too. They laugh at me when I raise it 7 way from the SB. I'm a fish I tell you!

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How bad was this chasing till river ??

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