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How aggressive we must be on small stakes Limit Hold'em?

  
 
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Raoni_Poker
Old 03-27-2009, 01:47 PM     Post subject: How aggressive we must be on small stakes Limit Hold'em? #1 (permalink)  
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Hi, there!

I am reading Sklansky book about small stakes games (Limit) and i am trying to apply some of its concept in my game. Well, at the first night…it was OK…I was tight, only played good hands. Even though I lost one or two big pots I ended up with 10 BB profit after 80 hands, seeing the flop about 15% of the time (not great…but OK, I guess). At this moment, I was still reading preflop playing, so…after the flop I played according to my cards (If I had something, I would bet…If I don’t, I would check and call a single bet if I had odds to do that).
Well, after reading the postflop play (which according to Sklansky you should be really aggressive). Last night I was playing Limit Holdem (0,02-0,04) and trying to apply this aggressiveness to my game…and I was not successful. I mean, I started bets with strong draws (minimum of 8 outs) and…well…the cards did not help. Besides that, it was really frustrating to loose money for those terrible players, who call raises with terrible cards, like 10-3, or J-5 unsuited (I had AA and I lost to a J-5 on the river).
In summary, I lost about 20BB in 109 hands…and I honestly believe that you should not be that aggressive when you do not have nothing on the flop. Perhaps I misread something, but I was doing better being more conservative (if you have hit the flop, you must be aggressive, but otherwise….I’m not that sure).
I would like to know from our poker gurus what they think of aggressiveness on small stakes games and perhaps illustrate it with some examples.
Thank you all,
Raoni
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Stacks
Old 03-27-2009, 02:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 {moved from BC}
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asdpikas
Old 03-27-2009, 03:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
{moved from BC}
why?
Is BC exclusively NL?
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asdpikas
Old 03-27-2009, 03:20 PM     Post subject: Re: How aggressive we must be on small stakes Limit Hold'em? #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoni_Poker
Hi, there!

I am reading Sklansky book about small stakes games (Limit) and i am trying to apply some of its concept in my game. Well, at the first night…it was OK…I was tight, only played good hands. Even though I lost one or two big pots I ended up with 10 BB profit after 80 hands, seeing the flop about 15% of the time (not great…but OK, I guess). At this moment, I was still reading preflop playing, so…after the flop I played according to my cards (If I had something, I would bet…If I don’t, I would check and call a single bet if I had odds to do that).
Well, after reading the postflop play (which according to Sklansky you should be really aggressive). Last night I was playing Limit Holdem (0,02-0,04) and trying to apply this aggressiveness to my game…and I was not successful. I mean, I started bets with strong draws (minimum of 8 outs) and…well…the cards did not help. Besides that, it was really frustrating to loose money for those terrible players, who call raises with terrible cards, like 10-3, or J-5 unsuited (I had AA and I lost to a J-5 on the river).
In summary, I lost about 20BB in 109 hands…and I honestly believe that you should not be that aggressive when you do not have nothing on the flop. Perhaps I misread something, but I was doing better being more conservative (if you have hit the flop, you must be aggressive, but otherwise….I’m not that sure).
I would like to know from our poker gurus what they think of aggressiveness on small stakes games and perhaps illustrate it with some examples.
Thank you all,
Raoni
you should keep betting your big draws aggressively. Just remember this is a long term proposition (a winning one). You wont win most pots, but when you do hit, they will be very big. If cards dont come your way one session, it will seem like you are spewing, but as long as you have bigger than average equity, you should keep it up, and it will pay big dividends in the long run.
Just remember that just as there are some bad variance sessions, there will also be very good sessions where you seem to hit almost always, and win tremendous amounts of BBs.
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Stacks
Old 03-27-2009, 03:26 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
{moved from BC}
why?
Is BC exclusively NL?
"Small Stakes ($25NL and lower): Basic No-Limit Hold'em strategies and general NLH discussions." That is the BC description. Not really the reason I moved it though. I don't know of any BC regs that are primarily limit players tbh, so I felt that he would get better responses if moved here.
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asdpikas
Old 03-27-2009, 03:31 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
{moved from BC}
why?
Is BC exclusively NL?
Not really the reason I moved it though. I don't know of my BC regs that are primarily limit players tbh, so I felt that he would get better responses if moved here.
that is totally true
us lhe players are a rare breed these days
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arborman
Old 03-27-2009, 06:10 PM #7 (permalink)  
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arborman
To answer the question, postflop aggression when you miss the flop is not as useful in the nano limits. People call down with everything preflop, so if you miss and they hit you will lose some chips.

This is especially the case if you get a lot of callers preflop. We all have a ~1 in 5 chance of making a pair - if there are 5 or more on the flop, someone probably has a pair. If that isn't you, then don't bother with a continuation bet.

Where you make money in the nano limits is by betting your hands that hit. Those guys who call down with any garbage hand will do so even when you have the nuts, so make sure you keep blasting at them when you hit. If you miss, then don't bother - let the donkeys fight over the scraps, and save your chips for a better hand.

That doesn't mean you should be passive with strong cards preflop. Always raise the good ones - you have a positive expectation with those cards, regardless of the specific hand you are playing. But money is mostly made and lost postflop, so don't throw the chips away on a missed hand.

NOTE: This does not apply at higher levels, when a continuation bet can be crucial.
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Airles™
Old 03-27-2009, 06:25 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Without reads, just bet/raise when you have a hand and check/fold when you don't. Don't semi-bluff as often either. Also, you're playing the wrong game if you're aiming for anything over 4bb/100 long-term, and even that is outstanding.
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Chopper
Old 03-27-2009, 07:44 PM #9 (permalink)  
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welcome.

first things first. playing "tight" isnt the total solution. and, neither is betting when you like your hand and folding when you dont. there is SO much more to LHE than that....although, you're off to the right start. we just need to build on that. and, the book you are reading will do it all by itself. keep reading it, and treat it like the bible.

as for aggression, it PAYS! 109 hands and -20bb's isnt really a lot, though it seems like it. it was one session of a bad run. draws dont come in often, but they win huge pots when they do. your "odds" can be different when there are several players in the pot.

the thing to learn, along with the basics, is "relative position." it is why you will sometimes raise with a big draw, and sometimes only check and call with the same draw. when there are several players in a pot, you want to be "building" a pot with your draws. you may not be best now, but you figure to be best 36% of time and stay best when you hit your straight or flush. so, we dont want to drive players out, but we want to get money in, too. limit is about the best hand at the showdown, not necessarily the best hand on the flop (or preflop).

however, when you find yourself with the best hand on the flop....and not a lot of outs to a stronger hand, you take more of a defensive approach. you, now, want to knock others out. kill those draws, or make it unprofitable for them to chase, if possible. sometimes a raise will do this, sometimes not. sklansky will tell you when is when.

aggression is EXTREMELY important, but it is not always appropriate to be balls-out aggressive. again, sklansky will teach that.

here, i have a limited database to pull from at the moment, but i will try to exemplify with a couple examples. bear in mind that there are much better examples, but i am trying not to search through 30k hands. i am just kind of grabbing what i see for now.

two from pot building...

loose call pre, but suited, connected and gambling that we will have all four players on the flop, thus giving me about 6.5:1 on a call to hit a big hand.

decent flush draw w/ an overcard, but i dont lead here because if all four stay in and a player to my left bets, i will likely get another bet in on the flop w/ a check raise...hence, pot building with a big draw. notice i have a 36% chance for my flush to hit, but there are 4 players in the pot? i have a 25% chance of winning (all things being equal) with FOUR players. so, since my pot odds are better than my "effective" odds (36% is higher than 25%), i raise FOR VALUE....to build a pot i should win more than 25% of the time.

turn gives me another 4 outs (gutshot), so i have 9+4=13 outs. 26% chance to win if my flush and straight are strong enough, 4 players still in, so i bet again. there is also a very slight chance they will all fold thinking i have a huge hand with a c/r and leading out the turn (but that would shock me).

river delivers a well-concealed straight. i have been aggressive, so i doubt anyone thinks i was drawing to a straight (flush maybe, but that missed). so, they may actually think i am bluffing here. i am looking to cram as much into the pot as i can by hoping my lead gets raised, which it does.

presto! justified aggression wins a huge pot. if i just check and call the whole way, i probably miss out on $5 that i earned through aggression.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, 8
UTG calls, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (8 SB) 9, 5, 3 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls, BB calls

Turn: (6 BB) 7 (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls

River: (10 BB) 10 (4 players)
Hero bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP caps, Hero calls

Total pot: $19 (19 BB) | Rake: $0.50

Results in white below:
Hero had J, 8 (straight, Jack high).
MP had 2, J (high card, Jack).
Outcome: Hero won $18.50

we are always aggressive preflop with a huge starting hand like AKs. obviously, we are glad to see it capped.

huge flop!! at first, it may look like we missed, but lets look at the possibilities... flush draw to the nuts, straight draw to the nuts, two nice overcards to top pair. we have a HUGE draw here and 4 players in the pot again! 6 overcard outs, 9 flush outs, and 3 straight outs (see counting outs in the book) gives us a total of 18 cards that can give us the nuts or a strong hand. we have almost a 72% chance of hitting one of these hands by the river. we will check again, planning to check raise. but, the bet didnt come close enough from our left to raise. if we raise now, we likely drive out customers. so, this is still "building a pot" because we are keeping players in instead of driving them out. had UTG or MP bet, we would have raised because no one folds for "one more bet."

turn gives us top pair, top kicker. we may now have overtaked CO for the best hand, but we dont want to scare him, or anyone else out now, because we still have two nut draws working. so, by being "passive," we are really still aggressively building a pot for the 15 cards that can give us the nuts...in which case we will plan to check raise because CO will not have a reason to check behind a river if we all check to him. after all, the flush would lead out, right? not us, we are AGGRESSIVE!


bullseye, the nuts on the river. and, we check raise hoping he 3bets. (we can discuss "overcalls" in another thread)

again, aggression rules the day. but, not relentless aggression. we are selective about when we apply it, but are always looking for spots to be aggressive.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls

Flop: (17 SB) Q, 4, 10 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls

Turn: (10.5 BB) K (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP calls

River: (13.5 BB) 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls

Total pot: $17.50 (17.5 BB) | Rake: $0.50

Results in white below:
Hero had K, A (flush, Ace high).
CO mucked 10, 10 (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $17


and one for protecting against draws...

using aggression is different depending on what you want to do. here we use it to drive others out and keep them from drawing.

we flop a weak overpair, but are likely best. we have a gutshot to go with it. there is a flush draw out there that may be wanting to chase. so, we look for the opportunity to check raise and force one of these guys to call two bets to see the turn. once the btn bets (which was what we thought would happen because he raised preflop), we raise to shut the UTG player out. he folds and we increase our chances of holding up.

turn gives us our gutshot, but do we slowplay our great hand? no, because the flush is still out there. so, we stay aggressive for both value AND defense. sure, he is calling properly if he's chasing it, but at least we charged him to do so. he wont hit very often with only one card left to come.

river misses a flush and we bet again. simple protection hand that worked out well since we improved to an even stronger hand on the turn.

notice we were actually behind on the flop and had our villain been an aggressive player, he would have RERAISED us on the flop. but, he was passive...........AND IT COST HIM!

aggression pays!! use it selectively, but use it.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 8
UTG calls, 1 fold, Button raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls

Flop: (7 SB) 5, 7, 4 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls

Turn: (5.5 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls

River: (7.5 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls

Total pot: $9.50 (9.5 BB) | Rake: $0.45

Results in white below:
Button mucked J, J (two pair, Jacks and fours).
Hero had 8, 8 (straight, eight high).
Outcome: Hero won $9.05
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Raoni_Poker
Old 03-28-2009, 02:56 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Wow...thank you all for the comments...
What a lesson!
Actually, yesterday I had a better day (without big draws, but I won 31BB in 1:15min. Aggressive when i could be and playing defensive with smaller hands).
I will keep studying it...still need some improvement to calculate EVs and odds...but i think its a matter of time.

Thanks again for the valuable lessons!
 
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Chopper
Old 03-28-2009, 04:05 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoni_Poker
Wow...thank you all for the comments...
What a lesson!
Actually, yesterday I had a better day (without big draws, but I won 31BB in 1:15min. Aggressive when i could be and playing defensive with smaller hands).
I will keep studying it...still need some improvement to calculate EVs and odds...but i think its a matter of time.

Thanks again for the valuable lessons!
just keep asking questions, and search through the "stickied" info at the top of the forum. there is a TON of information here at FTR. imo, more than anywhere else....for free. there are also some quality videos to watch, for free.

and, dont get too high with the 31BB session, and dont get too low from the -20BB session. those are normal swings in LHE. you'll be fine.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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