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daven
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08-23-2007, 10:38 PM
Post subject: Holding AQ, AQ flop. Play fast or slow?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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If the flop was three-suited I would probably smooth call here, as it is I think re-raising could be the best option to get rid of any flush-straight combo draw. I'm pretty sure the SB isn't folding (Ax?). Your thoughts?
Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (6 handed)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with  ,  .
Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.
Flop: (6.50 SB)  ,  ,  (3 players)
BB bets, [color=#CC3333]Hero??
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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No one is folding a flush draw if you raise as the pot odds are too good. You need to raise here for value though anyway.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PokerMuzz
No one is folding a flush draw if you raise as the pot odds are too good. You need to raise here for value though anyway.
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I agree. Raise for value. BB might have a flush draw and be building the pot, or might just be donking with middle pair in the hopes of knocking you out. If another heart comes on the turn you need to rethink it, but you are likely ahead at this point. I doubt button or BB would flat call AA or QQ. Without reads it's hard to tell though.
If you get reraised I'd probably call and wait for the turn without some kind of read on the opponent (i.e. is he an idiot?).
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Fast.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Raise the flop because smooth calling the flop to bump the turn won't suck the 3rd guy in anyway.
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TylerK
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08-24-2007, 02:19 PM
Post subject: Re: Holding AQ, AQ flop. Play fast or slow?
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#6 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
re-raising is the best option
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fixed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
to get rid of any flush-straight combo draw.
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but this is not why.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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surely you jest
raising is for value but also to define hands ranges as well, it's pretty obvious what a player calling 2bets cold has(flush draw/JT).
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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at these stakes, all I know about a player who calls 2 bets cold on the flop is that he has 2 cards.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
at these stakes, all I know about a player who calls 2 bets cold on the flop is that he has 2 cards.
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No kidding. Most hands I play I raise preflop, which narrows the field to 3 if not 4 or 5 people seeing the flop with me. Once someone has limped, they will almost certainly call every raise up to a cap, no matter what their cards. No such thing as isolating with a raise.
I've seen people reraise and cap on the turn or even the river with 4 people in the pot and bottom pair. It's enough to make you scream at times (when that bottom pair hits a third card on the river). 
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I love how you guys can be so pessimistic about a game where you state the players are horrible.
Give me a break.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Not what I was saying at all. Horrible players are a good thing to sit down with, despite the short-term variance that comes with it. I would love to see more horrible players at my tables.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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The only time I wouldn't raise if its 3 handed on the river in this spot. Button is still calling a flush draw anyway and bigger pots = better for you.
Plus, we know you raised cuz you screwed up the HH, so what random draw hit?
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with A , Q .
Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.
Flop: (6.50 SB) Q, A , 8 (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button folds, BB calls.
Turn: (5.25 BB) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.
River: (7.25 BB) T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.
Final Pot: 9.25 BB
Results in white below:
BB has As 7s (one pair, aces).
Hero has Ac Qs (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.25 BB.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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props on the river value bet
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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You are my hero with that river bet
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Aye, well played.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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I guess i'm the only one who favors waiting for the turn to raise. Here's why:
1) with top two pair you're a massive favorite to win against your opponents' ranges. Thus your goal is to get as much money in the pot as possible. If you wait till the turn to raise you may get a flop call from a weak hand on the button (an extra small bet), and 3 more BB in the pot on the turn instead of 2BB if the BB calls your turn raise and the button folds. True, the button would call two small bets cold with a FD on the flop (getting proper odds at 6.5:1), but he'll also call two big bets cold with a FD on the turn (getting proper odds at 4.75:1). Thus you can't force a button FD into making a mistake no matter what you do, but you can charge him the max to draw by waiting till the turn to raise.
2) You might be glad you didn't raise the flop if a heart hits on the turn and the action gets heavy.
3) That being said, people seem to overestimate the likelihood of being against a flush draw, and auto-raise their monsters on the flop whenever there's a FD out. However, we all know the chances of any two random cards both being hearts is 1/16. Given that people are more likely to play suited than non-suited cards, you might make that a 1/14 chance for each opponent here. Thus with two opponents the chance of one having two hearts might be about 1/7. The other 6/7 times you're opponents are drawing pretty much dead. When the BB bets out the flop, I'm much more inclined to think he has Ax or Qx than a FD. If I just call i can be pretty sure he'll bet out on the turn as well with Ax. Then i can raise him. By raising the flop you force an opponent with a weak Ace to revert to a c/c strategy, costing you the chance to raise the turn. This can backfire of course if he just c/c's any time he's been called on the flop, but that only costs you one small bet relative to raising the flop and you may make that up if you get an overcall from the button.
The only hand i'm concerned about giving a cheap card to on the flop is a gutshot, which is a legit concern with two broadway cards out. But since a gusthot's only getting 8:1 to call, he's still probably making a mistake with the FD also on board. If he stil calls with a gutshot when you raise the turn put him on your buddy list. If he hits it on the river say 'nh' and try not to puke until you find an appropriate receptacle.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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lol, then I play bad if it takes balls to bet that river, I would fire without second thought. So many worse hands call and it's any easy fold if we get c/raised.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I think you are better off trying to build a pot on the flop since it is multiway. Too many bad things can happen by trying to be deceptive.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I think you are better off trying to build a pot on the flop since it is multiway. Too many bad things can happen by trying to be deceptive.
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Everyone says 'build the pot' and i agree. But raising the turn builds the pot more than raising the flop. With a monster I want to extract the most bets I possibly can from everybody. I want the button to make bad flop calls with his A9, KK, TT-, gutshots, backdoor draws, etc. and i want to encourage the flop bettor to take the lead on the turn as well. If i raise the flop, neither or those things are likely to occur.
As far as bad things happening, I'm not worried about protecting my hand here. If i lose the occasional pot to someone who would have folded to a flop raise but hit a miracle gutshot or set on the turn, then i'm fine with that because the vast majority of the bets they put in to see the turn are going to end up in my pocket in the long run.
And like i said before, if a heart comes on the turn you may have saved yourself a bet by not raising the flop.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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