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| Chopper |
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day two... this hand was interesting, to me, in the fact that i think this is ultra standard, but i dont see players doing this....at this level. and, that makes us winners, imo. reads: open limper is a rocktard. i have no idea what makes him do anything he does, and i dont have an idea on exploiting him. i just dodge him if he gets a little aggressive. otherwise i respect him about as much as i did my mom when i was 17. raiser is a little loose, but probably fine for the table. he is aggressive and will bluff, semibluff raise, and pretty much abuse his position. the kind of player you dont like playing marginal hands against. and, the cold caller is a retard that i dont have a read on...other than he will call two cold from a completely oop spot in a multiway pot. if this wasnt AXs or a pp, i think he's only here to donate his monies to me and sharky. PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is BB with 10  , 9UTG calls, 4 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls Flop: (8 SB) 3 , 4 , 9 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero ??? whats our plan? how aggressive do we want to be? are we calling here, folding, or 3betting/capping? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece! 
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | |||||
| Trons |
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Ok, first time poster so be nice if I screw this up. I'm going to post at the chance of looking stupid because I see this so much and have probably been handling the situation badly. I usually will 3bet this on the Flop. My reasons for doing this is because I think btn raises the flop more often then is warrented and: A) he's the PF raiser, he's trying to represent AA. B) You've already stated that because of your read, he's capable of over playing a hand and trying to use his position. C) You may be able to drive UTG out (what's he calling with here...if it's overcards, we buy outs or he may have us out kicked (A9s?)...It's always a bonus if you can get a better hand to fold... If BTN calls then I fire out on the turn if it's a brick...(Putting btn on something like AK/AQ... If BTN 4bets then I probably fire one more time on the turn if it's a brick. I see so many players who don't mind being aggy on the flop then fold to 1 bet on the turn UI. If I get raised on the turn, then We're probably in trouble, but that's the way it goes some times. I play this way against guys with numbers like 30%vpip/15%pfr especially if they're known to be aggy after the flop even if they miss. Is FPS enabled on this guy? From your read, i'd say yes. If reads were different, I'd play this very different of course. |
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| Chopper |
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where the hell did this guy come from.......and welcome. can anyone say this better? or does anyone disagree/wanna play devil's advocate? holy shit.....nice virgin post. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Ragnar4 |
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what's our plan for the turn after we 3b/call the cap? Just a shade under 30% of the deck makes our hand very unattractive. But we have a hand with showdown value because top pair on the flop is good around 50% of the time by the river in these low limit games... If we were to filter this hand through SSH, I believe this would fall in the "marginal made hand category with no redraws" (while it does have a redraw, it's a very slim one, 2pr/trips.) any Face makes your life miserable, and you may already be drawing thin. But you do have great odds to peel to try to find a T or a 9. You can also call behind on the turn trying to hit your 2pr or trips, and depending on what falls on the river and your opponents action on the turn you may even have value there. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Lance |
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i prefer checkraise on this flop, think its much more powerful. If aggressor calls i lead the turn............. If he 3bets i would call him and depending on the turn card i would call him down.....all moves are based on villain's image. I hope that check raise pushes out the UTG. Coz he needs to call 2 bets. I dont like these spots  Wtf do i like ? 
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| BennyLaRue |
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Trons is right! Check-raise is an option, but might not force out the SB. I like betting out, anticipating the raise from the pre-flop aggressor. |
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| Trons |
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| BennyLaRue |
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| Trons |
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I like leading out because: A) If we're a head and UTG wants to see the turn for cheap (1 bet) and button does raise, we get to force UTG to face 2 bets when we 3 bet. B) If BTN flat calls, we get a better read on him (Depending on his action on the turn of course). I don't see this as likely given the stated read on the guy. C) If BTN raises, we're forcing SB to call 2bets without a clue as to how we're going to react. Now, granted if we go for the CR, we do basically the same thing to UTG, but there is (imo) less a chance of BTN 3betting (to try to force SB out) then of him 2betting trying to represent his hand. I guess in the end, I think it boils down to how you think BTN will react to either situation with a hand we beat. Something else I just thought of, AK will usually raise a donked flop bet to keep the initiative, especially if it's sooted and he caught a suit on the flop giving him a back door...I don't know if I've ever seen on 4 bet to accomplish the same thing. |
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| Chopper |
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ok. here's more... PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is BB with 10 , 9UTG calls, 4 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls Flop: (8 SB) 3 , 4, 9 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls Turn: (7.5 BB) A (2 players)Hero ?? obv, btn will bet. and, we are now HU like we want. but, the A really sucks. do we b/c or c/c? c/r is spewy, obv. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Trons |
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Well, we were hoping for a brick here and this isn't it, unless you want to count it as the brick that broke the glass house. I can't think of a hand that BTN would play this way that didn't include ace. With the aggy read from the start, I think we can take away most of the over PP's because he probably would have capped the flop with an over PP. Having said that, we have 5 outs to a good hand (2 9's and 3 T's) and if he bets the turn, we'll have 8.5:1 odds to call, plus if a T drops on the river we can probably get a CR in. Since we know that BTN is the type that will abuse his position, we can almost be assured that the implied odds are there to peal off another card. The big question will be the river, imo. If a brick hits do you c/c getting 10.5:1 to protect against the bluff or do you c/f figuring you probably should have folded on the turn? You did mention that BTN was loose/aggy, is he the type to throw KQ/KJ/QJ into his PF raise mix and use his position to punish people? If we can add that to possible hands, then we're still good. I think I c/c the turn and pray for a flowing river. |
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| asdpikas |
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imo: c/r flop as played: b/f or c/c turn depending on how likely u think he is to bluff raise u I like b/f better, cause he may be just as worried about the A as u are, AND i really hate the spot c/c puts me in on the river, turning my hand face up and letting him play perfect if he has 2 brain cells. |
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"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy. When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
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| Trons |
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I'm putting him on AK, AQ at this point, given his play thus far. If the players are anything like what I'm seeing at .25/.5, and his vpip/pfr are pretty high (say 30/20 or so) then we can open that range and include a group of hands that don't include the A...but I'm just not feeling. The only reason I say c/c turn and possibly c/c river is because, while I think we're beat here, I'm not more then 90% sure of it and that 10% of the time we win covers this particular situation. having said all that, I've seen some pretty goofy hands played tonight so I could be way off...This is just the way I'd probably play the hand against the type of player described. Even chasers catch their hand every now and then. |
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| DrivingDog |
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This is tricky because although your hand is probably best on the flop it is vulnerable and it's very hard to protect it. In that case the second best thing is to get value and I think the way to do that is to donk the flop. When button raises the flop it seems most likely he wants a free card with overcards, though it's possible he is ahead with an overpair. 3 betting the flop is meh imo because our hand is marginal and in those situations I don't mind keeping other players around even if they occasionally suck out on us. The Ace on the turn obv. blows in a big way. As played, given that Btn is aggressive I c/c the turn. Against some guys you can b/f the turn but if he's bluffy that's the perfect card to bluff or semi-bluff. We don't really want to be putting in more than one bet on the turn and river at this point (unless we improve on the river of course). |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| BennyLaRue |
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| Chopper |
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i had no idea a few posted hands to generate so much compelling discussion....and, i love it! Quote:
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| sinky |
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66+, AT+, KT+ QJ, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s (16%) On the flop any hand that he wants to play he should be raising. Being loose and aggressive that could include all of his overcards. Certainly those that have 2 backdoor draws. After just calling the 3 bet I would narrow his range to 66,77, 88, AT+, KQ, A9s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s When the Ad falls on the turn we have 47% equity. If we take out KQ we still have 42% equity. I don't like b/f on the turn. We would be getting 10.5 to 1 and we still have 2 good nine outs and 3 discounted ten outs. Would prefer to c/c the turn and river. |
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| sinky |
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Taking a step back, I have a question regarding the flop. Is check/calling an option for hero ? I'm sure it's similar to a situation in SSH (I think when discussing reverse implied odds) where it was better to just call the flop and raise a turn blank. Could be that in that example hero had position. Does that make a difference ? |
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| Trons |
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A) The example he gives there is a FD on the flop, so your TPWK is a lot weaker (they are both 99 in each hand, that one you only have a 2 kicker). B) this hand you have redraws to a very strong hand that doesn't appear it'll help anybody else. C) On the flop here, if we call the flop, we lose an opportunity to squeeze a player out of the hand. Since we don't know what that player has, we can't be sure if we want him to leave, but with this hand, I want it HU against an Aggy opponent that has a wide range of hands (see myself correcting the thinking about possible starting hands  D) Reverse implied odds, if i read it correctly, is basically what we call discounting here. Basically, it's saying "not all my visible outs are good so I need to recalculate" IMO that's best for call/fold situations. Sinky, you were correct, I was being a little narrow in my starting hand range for BTN. I'm going to start seeing if I'm playing the same way and maybe alter my plays a little bit. In this case, however, Since I wasn't advocating a fold based on my limited starting hand range, I was thinking c/c was best, I'm not sure if I'd still jam the turn even though there are a lot of hands he could have that we beat. One thing I haven't seen brought up yet is fold equity. Is there any from BTN? If he's known to throw his bluffs away on the turn or the river, then I think we may have some value in a bet here. I'll have to think about that some. |
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| Chopper |
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couple things, imo... i also think the original range is too narrow to pin on "i cant see any other hand but one with an A in it in the 3bet pot." he has been bluffy and is semi-loose....not a maniac. but, aggressive all the same. and, sharky players WILL/DO bluff a lot. the 3bet on the flop was to squeeze that remaining player out. his flop call was so weak that i figured there was a great chance he would fold and let me take this with btn HU....that alone increases our winning chances a lot. (straight out of SSHE for you fans) and, again, if that happens, i am not folding a flopped TP. if i lose, its 2 more BBs to a player that likely thinks his shit dont stink. being that his shit dont stink, he will likely try and run me over, too, with position. so, screw him....i gambool a bit with solid winning chances. i dont see how c/c'ing the flop is any option at all. its too weak. if we check and there is a bet and a raise back to us we have to fold what could be the best hand...i dont like that at all. if it gets bet and we call around, we just bloat a pot making it harder to force mistakes on others later in the hand should we like what we see. and, passivity SUCKS, imo, unless you are HU with an aggro villain. passivity really SUX in multiway pots with crap hands!! that should go w/o saying. we arent jamming this turn, either. our hand is vulnerable to all but bluffs. and, we have a bluffy player on the hook. let him spew it away. its kind of WA/WB, but more like "maybe ahead, but maybe WAY behind." if we get aggro, the only hands that continue with us have us smoked. REMEMBER THIS POT IS RATHER LARGE ON THE FLOP ALONE! that brings up FE...do we have any? i doubt it. and, the only things we fold off, we have beat. and, we dont want to do that, now do we? that is why i feel c/c on the turn is best....with the plan of c/c'ing river, too. this all kind of feeds a philosophy of mine called "opening his range." others call it inducing bluffs. but, whatever. the point is: there is a lot here that beats us. but, there is some that we beat, too. and, we dont know which is which because villain has been bluffy in the past. the "bluff" element alone requires us to see this hand to the end, imo. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Chopper |
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here's the river... PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is BB with 10 , 9UTG calls, 4 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls Flop: (8 SB) 3 , 4, 9 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls Turn: (7.5 BB) A (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls River: (9.5 BB) A  (2 players)Hero ?? now what? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| asdpikas |
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| Trons |
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Well, since we have no stated FE on villain, I don't see how you can do anything but c/c. At this point. with the call on the turn, he's gotta know we're in till the end. Check and hope for a check behind. Even if he bets, we've still got a bluffy opponent and a scary board...they love that. A bet by villain on the river here gives us no more information then we had on the turn. |
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| Chopper |
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can we b/f here? i dont see how that isnt an option. we are calling one, so why not bet and fold to a raise? we may get called by something that gave up on our turn call. there's no way he has the A, and the fact that it paired may well have given us a little FE now. at this point, i have him on some KX hand or mid pp hand. he caps flop with overpairs, imo. thin value? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| asdpikas |
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Trons, you seem to take hand reading too far... you cant narrow down his range to 2 possible hands after the flop. This is a huge mistake to make and it will cost u, especially at these lower stakes. Plus, if u put him on Ax u should fold the turn getting about 6-1 on your possible 5outs |
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| Trons |
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| asdpikas |
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and i do see a desperation bluff raise some times... so i dont really see any value in leading river |
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| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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