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Hmmm i got bluffed

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mouteut

01-07-2006, 07:18 AM Post subject: Hmmm i got bluffed

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 152

No special read on villian

PokerStars Game #3558235194: Hold'em Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/01/07 - 03:07:57 (ET)
Table 'Sojourner' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: t-down ($12.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Kyatoro ($101.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Floofy ($494.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Hicksd ($26.75 in chips)
Seat 6: scooterge558 ($45.50 in chips)
scooterge558: posts small blind $0.25
t-down: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Floofy [4s 4h]
Kyatoro: folds
Floofy: raises $0.50 to $1
Hicksd: raises $0.50 to $1.50
scooterge558: folds
t-down: folds
Floofy said, "j han"
Floofy: raises $0.50 to $2
Betting is capped
Hicksd: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [As Qh Td]
Floofy: bets $0.50
Hicksd: raises $0.50 to $1
Floofy: folds
Hicksd collected $5.50 from pot
Hicksd: shows [4c 5c] (high card Ace)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5.75 | Rake $0.25
Board [As Qh Td]
Seat 1: t-down (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Kyatoro folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Floofy folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Hicksd (button) collected ($5.50)
Seat 6: scooterge558 (small blind) folded before Flop

thoughts?

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ihategnomes

01-07-2006, 08:23 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: Louisiana

Posts: 1,225

What is there to think about?

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

mouteut

01-07-2006, 08:54 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 152

i played badly? i can't think of calling this down. And what you think of his play? its really a crazy bluff

thenonsequitur

01-07-2006, 10:40 AM Post subject: Re: Hmmm i got bluffed

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

I usually don't cap this preflop without a specific reason to do so. Aside from the difficulty in playing this hand out of position, it's not clear that you have an equity edge even if both of you went all-in now and got to see all 5 board cards and a showdown. While you do have a small equity edge IF your opponent has two high cards, many people will 3-bet pairs, most of which are higher than 44. I just call the 3-bet and hope to hit a flop coordinated with this hand. Against reasonable players, I occasionally I will cap, but only for deception, and only against players that I think the deception will be useful against, and even then only sometimes. Against a maniac that will 3-bet nearly any two you have a definite edge and should cap (turns out this guy was a maniac--so good cap if it was read-based).

I check-fold this flop. A typical 3-betting range 5-handed is 88-AA, AK-AJ, KQ. You are behind all of these hands. You are even behind the vast majority of fringe hands that people sometimes 3-bet (22-77, KJ, QJ, ATs, etc...). Of these additions, you are really only ahead of 22 and 33. Even if you open his hand range up more (e.g. any two broadways) you are still usually behind.

So what it comes down to is you are behind on the flop. If you stay in this hand you have to expect to bluff the other guy out (or hit a third four, which you still might lose to a higher set or a straight). But I don't see villian folding being very likely (even if you assign him a very large 3-betting hand rage). If he has an ace with a good kicker (most of the ace hands he will 3-bet do have a good-to-great kicker), a set (fairly likely on this board with a preflop cap), 2-pair, or a straight then he is not folding. Even for his double-broadway hands that don't have an ace and didn't two-pair or better, he might have hit a pair and a gutshot. He's not folding the vast majority of his possible holdings here. The only hands you can really expect to fold are pocket pairs that didn't hit a set, and that is a small minority of possible hands he has. Add in the fact that there is a good chance that he will raise you with many of these hands and that sucks when you are trying to bluff. And if your opponent just flat-calls you will be hard pressed to follow-up bluff the turn. Your bluff doesn't have to work very often to be profitable, but I think it works less often than required.

When you get into a raising contest with a low pocket pair preflop you have to be ready to give it up against most opponents on a broadway flop.

All that being said, betting the flop isn't terrible if your opponent is weak/loose preflop and weak/tight post-flop. But even in this case I am tempted to check because a weak/tight opponent will often check behind on this flop if he didn't get a piece of it (that way you can confidently fold if he bets the flop, and safely bluff him out on the turn if he checks the flop). Again, this is only for a certain type of player; against most I just check/fold the flop (and most will autobet this flop if you check to them).

As far as his play, I think his bluff was just terrible. He is bluffing into a preflop capper that then led the flop on a coordinated broadway board. While your bluff with 44 was similar, it has at least some merit because you were the last aggressor preflop (and you capped) and you were first to act on the flop, so some hands that are better than yours might fold, and you even beat a few possible 3-betting hands (22, 33, certain double broadways) and have some possible outs. I can see some times that this would work (as discussed above, it usually doesn't, so I think the flop bet is usually -EV).

On the other hand, his bluff almost never works (it is very -EV). The pot is bigger so you are now getting bigger odds than he was, there was no sign that you are ready to back off, it is a pure bluff (there is nothing that 45 beats here) and it has basically no outs (the only things that can really help him are the backdoor straight draw and two runner-runner trip draws). He got very lucky and you had one of the few hands that can fold to a checkraise on this flop. In most cases he is just wasting money.

EDIT: Wow, that post was so much longer than I meant it to be. I need to learn to be more concise.

pokerfanatic

01-07-2006, 05:43 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

mouteut why are you playing .5/1 when you posted stats for 2/4?

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Hmmm i got bluffed

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