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HH's for review: 99's

  
 
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Chicago_Kid
Old 02-28-2005, 06:34 PM     Post subject: HH's for review: 99's #1 (permalink)  
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99 got creamed this weekend. Any thoughts how to play these in EP? Apparently, I cannot...

5 Hands:

H1:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB completes, Hero (poster) checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7, 6, 3 (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) A (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB doesn't show.
Hero has 9h 9d (one pair, nines).
UTG+1 has Ts 3s (two pair, tens and threes).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 10.50 BB.

H2:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 9.
4 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8, 5, K (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4 (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (9 BB) 8 (3 players)
BB bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 5h 7h (two pair, eights and fives).
MP3 has Ad Qs (one pair, eights).
Hero has 9c 9s (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 12 BB.

H3:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9.
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 5 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9, 6, T (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, BB calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Jh Qd (straight, queen high).
Hero has 9h 9d (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: BB wins 6.75 BB.

H4:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9. CO posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 5 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J, T, Q (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 raises, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 caps, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (14.75 BB) 6 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, BB calls, Hero folds.

River: (17.75 BB) 5 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 6d 5d (two pair, sixes and fives).
UTG+1 has Jc Tc (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 19.75 BB.

H5:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, 9.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9, Q, A (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, CO calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 9s 9h (three of a kind, nines).
CO has Td 8c (straight, queen high).
Outcome: CO wins 10.50 BB.
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 02-28-2005, 06:56 PM #2 (permalink)  
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hand 1: not too big of a mistake to call down. you could lay this down against typical players.

hand 2: raise the flop, for information and free turn card.

hand 3: bet the river, fold to a raise.

hand 4: horrible turn fold.

hand 5: bet the river.
 
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Fnord
Old 02-28-2005, 07:03 PM #3 (permalink)  
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1. Sometimes you can laydown on the turn.
2. I hate calling the flop. Raise to take over the hand (check behind the river unimproved) or fold. I often just fold here.
3. Yup
4. Your OSD is really only 3 clean outs. Fold the flop.
5. I hate every post-flop street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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gabe
Old 02-28-2005, 07:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
hand 2: raise the flop, for information and free turn card.
why would you want a free card? i could see a 'cheap showdown' but i dont know why he wants a free card (or why he would want to give out a freecard)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
1. Sometimes you can laydown on the turn.
when?
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Fnord
Old 02-28-2005, 07:13 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
1. Sometimes you can laydown on the turn.
when?
When UTG isn't very aggro. Most players in that game will show you top pair or better after making that raise. With only 2 outs to improve you're smoked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Old 02-28-2005, 07:18 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
hand 2: raise the flop, for information and free turn card.
why would you want a free card? i could see a 'cheap showdown' but i dont know why he wants a free card (or why he would want to give out a freecard)
if someone has a strong king they will 3bet, and you know you are behind. otherwise they have weaker holdings like what they had.

raising the flop gains control on the turn. if you are bet into you're probably horribly beat. otherwise you can bet again, or if the turn is ugly like an ace of spades you can take your free flush draw.
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-28-2005, 07:52 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Hand 2 is the hand in question for me too. I raise the flop here not only to take control of the hand, but to follow through with my preflop raise. I've had COUNTLESS times that people will bet into me when I preflop raise because of all the weak-tighties (*cough* Fnord for folding *cough*). I could post so many examples where I reraised preflop, had a guy bet into me on the flop, where I reraised, then the guy folded on the turn to my bet (or even on the flop).

It gets to the point where I KNOW when he will bet into me, and I will raise him on it. Only a few times have I ever folded the flop when bet into only because the board couldn't have missed me any more than it did. Think about it this way: if he actually had a GOOD hand, why would he bet the flop straight out like that? wouldnt he be more inclined to check raise you on a later date? Granted, if he was a horrible player who had no thought process either way, then this holds true. But even the average player knows to let you bet into him.

You also see a bet out like this when he is on a flush/straight draw. You're most likely ahead here and should raise. Another tell would be that Top Pair no kicker, is looking to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, so he'll be on check/call the entire way. Which then brings in the free card, take it if you think these guys are just going to check/call you down. Then, on the river, I would fold to a bet and a reraise.


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elipsesjeff
Old 02-28-2005, 07:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 I also think hand 5 you should be betting out here on the flop. There are 4 people in the pot and betting will hide the real strength of your hand. You're also hoping you'll get raised, which may or may not fold out lonely gutshot. Also, if you're raised, you set up the check-raise on the turn. If you three bet the turn you must follow through on the river.


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Fnord
Old 02-28-2005, 08:04 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Think about it this way: if he actually had a GOOD hand, why would he bet the flop straight out like that? wouldnt he be more inclined to check raise you on a later date?
Good players will often lead good hands into the raiser for a few reasons.

o It's really profitable to bet/3-bet or check/raise the turn if you expect the pfr to auto-raise.
o It sets up a profitable weak lead bluff
o A weak lead will often get semi-aware players between you and the pfr to fold as they don't want to be sandwiched in the middle.
o Sometimes you need to lead into the pfr to get the pot manipulation you want (build vs isolate) given your position relative to the pfr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-28-2005, 08:24 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord

Good players will often lead good hands into the raiser for a few reasons.

o It's really profitable to bet/3-bet or check/raise the turn if you expect the pfr to auto-raise.
o It sets up a profitable weak lead bluff
o A weak lead will often get semi-aware players between you and the pfr to fold as they don't want to be sandwiched in the middle.
o Sometimes you need to lead into the pfr to get the pot manipulation you want (build vs isolate) given your position relative to the pfr.
Oh, I'm not saying I don't do it, but in the mind of the most average players they arent thinking this far ahead, heck they are hardly aware of why they are betting at the moment. Usually what will happen is they notice a flop of all unders with a prelfop raise, he may or may not have hit his bottom pair, but most likely as in this case, then he'll bet out. If he's not raised its more than likely that the original raisor is beat (again, a lot weak tight players will autofold this to a flop bet).

Theres really only one way to find out if it is a weak lead bluff vs a person with a real strong hand, and thats to raise yourself (2+2 hates to raise for 'information' but in a sense you are). A three bet will signal a strong hand as well, most likely a set. And this weak lead that folds the semi-aware players are only doing you a favor by decreasing the players and getting it HU. Obviously, if you have those callers on the flop, the raise will only set up a free card on the turn. If Headsup, you fold to a check raise and take the free showdown.

And, most good players will not lead out with anything other than a set, which he will then check raise the turn; I dont think 2 pair will lead out either, in an attempt to check raise and protect his hand. I still think raising here is a good play because its more likely to be a weak lead bluff than a monster (as the results indicated).


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Chicago_Kid
Old 02-28-2005, 09:40 PM #11 (permalink)  
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All good thoughts, guys.

Since I moved to 2/4 a couple weeks ago, I've been crushing pretty well. However, this session I just seemed to run up against TAP's that didn't give away their hands, or just came up second best a lot. Ironically, all my good cards seemed to come up in EP, while in LP I got shit. About a 55 BB downswing...ouch.
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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