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HH: Trouble with AKo

  
 
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Tripps7
Old 03-28-2005, 08:52 PM     Post subject: HH: Trouble with AKo #1 (permalink)  
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Over 8k hands and I these are my stats for AKo:

Hands: 79
Win %: 46.84
Net: 89.59

There's got to be some leaks in here. My BB/100 win rate has dropped under 2 for 2/4 and I think my AK hands are a big reason why. Any help would be appreciated

Hand 1

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J, 7, 2 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) A (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 2 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

Hand 2

Absolute Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7, A, 5 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Hand 3

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 4, 2, 8 (4 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 2 (4 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (12.25 BB) J (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Hand 4

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8, J, T (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 9 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Hand 6

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, A.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J, 3, Q (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3 (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB




Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K.
5 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6, 9, J (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB


I'll post some more hands later....
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-28-2005, 09:05 PM #2 (permalink)  
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all are pretty standard.
hand 7 i might make one last desperate bluff vs certain opponents.
 
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Trikflow77
Old 03-28-2005, 09:05 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Start letting some of the hands go on the turn. If it is not heads up by the turn and you have Ace high, your not good. Look at board texture when you bet, that is the key when you wiff. If it is queen rag rag rainbow and 2 people call you, why bet unimproved on the turn?
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Tripps7
Old 03-28-2005, 10:05 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
Start letting some of the hands go on the turn. If it is not heads up by the turn and you have Ace high, your not good. Look at board texture when you bet, that is the key when you wiff. If it is queen rag rag rainbow and 2 people call you, why bet unimproved on the turn?
I agree. Once in a while vs. weak/tight opponents I will get a fold(s) on the turn and take down the pot. I think this tempts me too much to try and bluff for the pot on the turn. The few times I pull down the pot doesn't make up for the times I get called or raised.

Just looking through some hands in PT, I have found 4 hands, just in the last 2 weeks, that I have flopped 2 pair with AK and lost. That certainly doesn't help the bottom line...

What do you think about not betting out in EP on a rag flop with 5 or 6 callers? I am thinking I should do this more, If there is a lot of action I can fold or if I spike my A or K, I can check raise.
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ChezJ
Old 03-28-2005, 10:12 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 i don't usually bet out my AK unimproved on a ragged flop if there are multiple players. only if i'm last to act, and then if anyone calls, you have to watch out for reverse domination (as apparently occurred in hand 1). it's pretty obvious to everyone that i did not connect with rags, and few if any will ever credit me for having a pocket overpair. in EP i check-call to ensure proper odds (7:1) for chasing my overs to the turn. if i miss on the turn, i dump it. you can't fall in love with AK just because it looks good. at low limits, somebody's calling you down with bottom pair.

ChezJ
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Tripps7
Old 03-28-2005, 10:30 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
you can't fall in love with AK just because it looks good. at low limits, somebody's calling you down with bottom pair.

ChezJ
Too often I often finding myself checking calling\folding on the river. When do you ever go to the river with AK unimproved?
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hagakure
Old 03-28-2005, 10:41 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripps7
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
you can't fall in love with AK just because it looks good. at low limits, somebody's calling you down with bottom pair.

ChezJ
Too often I often finding myself checking calling\folding on the river. When do you ever go to the river with AK unimproved?
I never do. It hurts me way more than it helps. I have seen people hold on to AA with 44 on the board, calling every bet they can. Then they get beat by 444 or a boat.
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poker2006
Old 03-29-2005, 12:36 AM #8 (permalink)  

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I think in limit you have to play AK even more conservatively than NL, because you cannot get people out of the pot easily. If you have a rag flop but 3-4 people in the hand, there's a high chance someone hit the flop and will not give up. It might be 9,5,2 but if someone was playing 89s and has top pair he will not give it up. You can't go all in like in NL to represent an overpair.

Try to check the flop, and bet if you are in late position and people check to you twice in a row. A large turn bet might get them out more easily because the pot is small. Also, it will be easier for you to release the pot if you don't improve on the turn and someone bets into you, since you'll have less money in the pot and no odds to chase a river catch.
--poker2006
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Room
Old 03-29-2005, 12:44 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Room
Quote:
Originally Posted by poker2006
I think in limit you have to play AK even more conservatively than NL, because you cannot get people out of the pot easily. If you have a rag flop but 3-4 people in the hand, there's a high chance someone hit the flop and will not give up. It might be 9,5,2 but if someone was playing 89s and has top pair he will not give it up. You can't go all in like in NL to represent an overpair.
Im far from a NL expert, but going all in with AKo on that ragged flop probably won't win you much in the long run. I think you need to play your AKo aggressively but be mindful of position. You're not going to win every AKo hand, and you won't hit every flop. Practice losing the least when these things happen.
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Fnord
Old 03-29-2005, 01:29 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: The turn 3-bet is opponent specific. UTG+1 is representing a monster here. Consider that you probably can pop him again on the river if you want.
Hand 2: Standard
Hand 3: I hate the river fold. I like check/call and bet/fold better than check/folding here.
Hand 4: I would check behind on the turn and call a river bet
Hand 5: There is no hand 5
Hand 6: YOu can't fold this turn, once again consider checking behind with outs. Particularly if your opponents don't like to fold.
Hand 7: The pot is small and it's unlikely he's on a draw. Check/folding the river is fine.
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Tripps7
Old 03-29-2005, 05:07 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Some more AK hands from last night. I think I played this a little better than ones above. Somehow I still managed to lose them all...

Hand 1: should I check/call the river?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) K, Q, 2 (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls $2 (All-In), MP2 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) J (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 6 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB



Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K.
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 7, 7, J (3 players)
SB bets, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2 (2 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 9 (2 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB



Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A.
5 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 4, 6, A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.


Final Pot: 11.50 BB



Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, K.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, 6 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8, 3, 9 (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) T (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.75 BB) T (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 4.75 BB
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-29-2005, 06:26 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Probably already covered, but deciding whether you follow through should be dependent on the opponent and their position, and how many flops you've seen at the table. If you are opening every flop by betting out, you are not going to get 2 relatively cognizant opponents to fold. If you've shown down a couple big hands, or have played tight, you can go at it a bit.

I have trouble with AK alot, and most if them are b/c I'm out of position trying to bowl over people with a blank board and only 6 outs. I've been trying to mix it up a bit depending on table image and opponents in, which has helped my WR with AK, AQ, etc.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-29-2005, 06:35 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripps7
Some more AK hands from last night. I think I played this a little better than ones above. Somehow I still managed to lose them all...

Hand 1: should I check/call the river?
Hand 1: Not sure if I like the 3-bet pre-flop. You're out of position with three callers behind..gotta assume 1-2 of those MP guys will call, which takes outs away from you. I'm guessing you lost to two pair--KQ?

Hand 2: Call the flop, fold the turn. He hit the flop...

Hand 3: Standard...AT?

Hand 4: Fine, albeit weird...flush draw and wiffed on the river c/r? Or maybe TPTK on the flop? I'd want a read here, but either way I'm check/folding the T or R.
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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Room
Old 03-29-2005, 08:17 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: does he have 10s? AA? I would think AA would 3 bet the flop? You might have lost close to the minimum here with your hand. Not sure about the 3 bet in poor position (and esp since its offsuit)

Hand 2: Raise the flop since you have position. Calling/Folding to a 3-bet is another argument. This play is probably more based on your read of the opponent than anything else. It buys you a free card if you improve, you can bluff the turn if hes weak tight, or bet if your improve. On a side note about the flop, I think raising>folding>calling.

Hand 3: Chicago, I think youre giving too much credit here, Button OPEN RAISES. While he could very well have two pair, you have a good enough hand to 3-bet (in hind-sight you lost but thats not the issue). while pairing the board on the river may be scary, its possible you counterfeit his two-pair. Any spade (less the Ts) gives you the nuts. A K gives you 2 pair. If he has a set, youre drawing unfortunately, to only 8 outs (less the T of spades).

Im playing this hand slightly differently...
Preflop= yup 3 bet
Flop = lead - 3 bet if you get the chance.
Turn & River =
if he calls your flop bet - bet out, call down a raise.
if he raises you on the flop - check call down unless you improve. Might be ballsy to c/r if a spade or K hits. So either lead and play it standard, or take your chances on losing a bet if you go for the c/r.

Hand 4: Standard here. You've invested 2BB to get AKs to the river. Spades wont help you here obviously. No need to bluff the turn. Cant bet the river. Only hands that beat you will call. You lost the least here. Again, cant win them all.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-29-2005, 10:42 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
Hand 3: Chicago, I think youre giving too much credit here, Button OPEN RAISES.
Naw....me?

My conclusion was based on his turn raise in the face of Tripps' flop raise, and the fact that Tripps said he lost the hand. Guy probably hit two pair or better on the turn, UNLESS he's balsy enough to see and combat a C/R for free card play on the part of Tripps. Barring that unlikely play, I'd assume I was behind on the turn after the raise, but check/call down.

The specific hand stab was for kicks...
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