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HH: A semi-cute Laydown and one I couldn't let go...

  
 
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Tripps7
Old 03-22-2005, 03:20 AM     Post subject: HH: A semi-cute Laydown and one I couldn't let go... #1 (permalink)  
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Tripps7
MP3 laggy, utg+1 is loose passive

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) T, 4, Q (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 9 (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero folds, MP3 calls.

River: (13.75 BB) J (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 raises, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Jc 8d (straight, queen high).
MP3 has Ac Kc (straight, ace high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 17.75 BB.

Both Players laggy. Just couldn't let this one go... was going to drop this on the turn but picked up the wheel draw. sigh...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K, A.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero caps, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (21.50 SB) 4, 3, 8 (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (17.25 BB) 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (20.25 BB) Q (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Ah (high card, ace).
MP1 has Jc Jh (one pair, jacks).
Button has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Button wins 20.25 BB.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-22-2005, 01:15 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I mean this constructively...what was your thought process on Hand 1? You put someone on Trips?
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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Tripps7
Old 03-22-2005, 02:46 PM #3 (permalink)  
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UTG+1 was a passive calling station. I had Him at like 70%/0/0.5 for about 50 hands. His sudden betting into 2 raisers pretty much screamed straight. Not to mention MP3 had 3 bet on the flop and preflop. He may have AA or KK. At this point I think I am third best with no chance of a straight. Third best hand always pays off the nuts and 2nd best hand.

As for the 2nd hand, anyone not have a problem laying that down?
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ChezJ
Old 03-22-2005, 03:51 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 hand 2 i would not bet that flop in EP. check call and pray for an A/K on the turn. the wheel draw is a weak excuse to continue, even with 17:1. you are drawing to three 5's (the 5 is tainted) and if you hit one, anyone with a 6 kills you. also you could be drawing dead against a made flush. never draw to the wheel. i think it is an easy laydown.

ChezJ
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-22-2005, 04:34 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Check/fold the turn, per Chezj's rationale. You made a valiant attempt at semi-bluffing, but missed. The turn is not good, and you're rapidly losing outs...
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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Tripps7
Old 03-22-2005, 08:01 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I called the Turn bet for several reasons. At least my thought process at the time:

Wheel Draw. I respectufully disagree with "Never draw to the Wheel" As we know "Never" isn't a word used in poker too much. In 99% of the cases that's good advice but given the action on this hand It was highly unlikely that either player had a six. Both players were laggy but they weren't maniacs. (maybe I am giving them too much credit)

I put MP3 on AA,KK or QQ. With AA I only have 3 outs to a split pot. Not that great. With KK my outs go up to 5 (As is tainted) and 7 outs with QQ. UTG is just tagging along and is probably not very strong or is on a draw. Most likely doesn't have a flush or he would have raised.

I am closing the action. If the river is a blank for me then it's an easy fold.



Bottom Line is I can definitely see it as a turn fold and depending on my mood or the players, I will fold this at some point in my life. But with the size of the pot I don't think it's a huge mistake to call 1 bet (True it goes to 2 if my card hits and a chance I still might lose). If I fold Its a 20 BB loss if I hit my hand on the river and only 1 BB if I don't. Nobody wants to see a huge pot they would have won go to someone else for the cost of 1 turn bet.

I would be interested in the numbers if someone wants to run them...
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Fnord
Old 03-22-2005, 08:04 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: Great time to wait for the turn. With a smaller pot it's easier to laydown on the turn.

Hand 2: I play it the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-22-2005, 08:42 PM #8 (permalink)  
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i don't understand hand 2. you have nothing but ace high with no monster draws except for a weak backdoor wheel, why are you ramming and jamming it?
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-22-2005, 10:09 PM #9 (permalink)  
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You were 12% to win with 2 Aces and 3 5s.
So, getting at least 17:1 good call on the turn.
You are still 7% to win with only the 3 5s as outs, which means it is still correct to call, unless you put one of your opponents on a flush.

I do not at all think that it was correct to 3 bet the flop with A high out of position. This is an acceptable play from the button, but from early position you have a much smaller chance of getting a free card. You can not assume AK is good with a raiser and a caller. You are also not going to bet them out of a capped pot, so I think checking the flop is correct the majority of the time. It would allow you to get away from the hand on the turn, and save you more than a few bets.

Good cap preflop. Too many players miss this chance at preflop equity.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-22-2005, 10:11 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:
Cap the flop, call the turn, fold the river.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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Room
Old 03-23-2005, 01:24 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Hand 1:
Cap the flop, call the turn, fold the river.

I dont necessarily like this line. cap for value? yes you have TPTK, but A) you have to feel someone has you beat already (looking back you were playing donks but you cant always assume that) and B)youre closing the action, everyone is definately going to call one more bet. looks like a bunch of cards can hurt you on the turn, but you might be able to convince me of a cap on the flop. call the turn when UTG leads? hes the person we all love to see at any table. calling with J8o in UTG+1 is amazing for us. then, Tripps even called it... UTG+1 is loose passive. when a passive player becomes aggressive, bounce. his turn lead on that 9 = youre drawing slim to none.
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Fnord
Old 03-23-2005, 01:27 AM #12 (permalink)  
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My bad, this pot is out-of-control on the flop.

I would lead into MP3 and hope he raises. I don't think I lay this down on any street for less than 2 big bets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-23-2005, 01:53 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 is one of the few times that I fold for 1 bet on the river.
The Jd completes every possible draw.

I agree you should lead with this hand.

And raise for value. There are very few times that TPTK is not good on this flop. Unfortunately, the hand just got worse with every new card.
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