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Poker Forum |
Over 1,246,000 Posts! |
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| Chopper |
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heres another where i figure i should not have taken it this far, but got lucky, and still missed value. any other line you would use? assume no reads. actually, villain in flop (capping) was a bit loose and aggressive. PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) Preflop: Hero is BB with Q  , K . 1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks. does anyone feel its correct to raise oop here? Flop: (4 SB) J , T , K (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, CO folds, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP caps, Hero calls. TPGK and an OE to the nut str8. is capping ok, or do we put villain on AT or a draw here? draw is doubtful with this aggression, right? or is there a place for it...say, you hit like i did...do you cap w/ my hand? Turn: (6 BB) 4 (2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls. am i missing potential value off my draw here? River: (8 BB) A (2 players)Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls. this is where i go risky. i take a chance that he has the flush, and i gave a free card on the turn. i didnt want to bet because of the flush, but in a pot this size, i cant fold to one bet. however, should i have lead anyway? Final Pot: 10 BB many thanks |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece! 
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | ||||||||||
| KoRnholio |
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| I'd bet-call the river since it looks like he has a made hand on the flop (something like KT, Q9, TT) rather than a flush draw. Checking the river lets him show down his weaker 2 pair type hands for free, but he will surely at least call if we bet. | |||||||||
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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| Stagemn |
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| NWNewell |
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I'm not worried about the club on the river. I think the way it was played he knows we are not going to fold the turn. If he is on the flush draw (which I would doubt unless he is a maniac) and missed it on the turn, he probably would have checked the turn. You have enough odds to c/c the turn. And I would bet/call the river as well. Other than that, I don't have any real problem with it. I think you have enough equity to protect against the possible FreeCardRaise by either 3-betting the flop or calling and leading the turn. But on the other hand... it is 0.1/0.20 Limit, and who knows what those cats are doing. Sometimes its tough to get a read on what they are doing when they don't even know themselves. I have the feeling they are not raising for free cards too much. In which chase, there is no need to try to protect against it. Is it possible that he is likely raising a better hand and you should probably just play for the draw... and then possibly make a crying all on the end with your TPGK if you miss.... hhmmm.... 
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My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
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| bigspenda73 |
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Meh, I c/c the river I don't see what donking does for you on this river. Opponent is either checking behind with a worse hand or folding to a bet IMO. We'd have to put him on JJ a lot to make donking the river a better play. |
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| euphoricism |
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Disagree. He's not capping K9 or 99, and thats all you beat right now. Check call is fine. Quote:
and ... no. We need to bet/call this hand. Sets will call a bet, but often will not bet it themselves. If you split, you split, and if he has a flush thems the breaks. Definite bet/call. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| euphoricism |
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Rarely does a hand get capped on the flop and folded for one bet on the river. Incredibly rarely. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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C/C turn. B/F river. euph already mentioned why. |
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| bigspenda73 |
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Your argument doesnt make donking any stronger than c/c There is always a range we can get called with. 2pr calling on this board might as well be King hi on a normal board b/c all it's beating is a bluff. |
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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pros: only lose 1 bet to a flush. perhaps even inducing a bluff, although highly unlikely since every scare card is out. cons: it gets checked through by some weird hand...maybe a set B/C pros: gets value from sets that would have checked behind. ensures we get a showdown, prevents another Q from stealing the pot. cons: a flush is a big part of villain's range B/F pros: gets value from sets that would have checked behind, and we're still only losing 1 bet to flush. villain is highly unlikely to raise the river with a Q, because the flush is a scare card for them. cons: if the villain is savvy enough to bluff this river, good for them. if the villain is dumb enough to raise with a Q, you'll make it back in future hands. |
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| Fnord |
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| River is an easy B/C. | |||||||||
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| bigspenda73 |
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Come on Hyper, no one is b/f this river. It's either c/c or b/c |
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| Ragnar4 |
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His action on the flop pretty much destroys any sort of logic that he is on a flush draw. With an early limp, I put him on 2 pair, like JT or quite possibly he played a set of tens like this. When the 4 comes off on the turn, I have a hard time wanting to bet again, especially when I put him on 2 pair on the flop. So I'd have played it the same. River. I bet, and call a raise here. If the player is a donkey. He's more likey to play king poop clubs here. IF the player is solid, we go to war. The only hand a solid player would play here that beats us IMO like this is QJ of clubs. limp early, raising war on the flop with a nuclear draw. I just can't imagine that my opponent would have it. So I can't put him on a completed flush. My gut still says you caught back up with your opponent holding JT. For what it's worth. A) No one folds for one bet at .10/.20 limit from a button raise. No point in raising against 4 other players unless the KQ is suited. In fact no-one should ever fold for one more bet from the button, the implied odds of the call are just too good. People may fold if button raises, and EP re-raises. B) I don't think you over-played the hand by getting into it with Top Pair good kicker here + awesome draw. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| bigspenda73 |
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| Ragnar, he could easily have QcJc | |||||||||
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| Chopper |
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wow, all of a sudden we have a thread. many thanks for the details. i saw problems with this hand right from the get-go. first, i raise KQo oop into a loose-passive table. by the book, thats bad, but at a loose table, i cant see it as too bad...unless you cannot get away from it. the other comment i see is on the flop...the "weed out crappy hands" comments. the crappy hands you mention (KJ, KT) have me beat. but pf, why do i want to "weed them out?" when i hold KQ, i want KT calling. i want KJ calling. i dont want AK in there, not that i can do anything pf to make AK go away. but if the table is willing to play KT to a raise cold, then i say, so be it. thats why you would raise KQ, imo. to charge the lesser hands to come along and out draw you...again, if you have the table that will cold call with crap...and i kinda thought i did. at a tighter table (rare at .10/.20), i wouldnt raise with KQ from UTG. gotta be +EV in the long term. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Chopper |
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actually, that last comment sounded a bit backwards. my style... if i want to thin the field...i raise. if i want to string them along, i limp/call. if i am playing at a truly loose table pf, i raise just about all my stronger hands, and take my chances...keeping in mind WHO is calling. the fish NEED to be charged to see a flop with a hand that is dominated. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| euphoricism |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| bigspenda73 |
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It's silly to say he could have QcJc here? What would expect a solid player to show up here with after open limping MP? Im not calling MP solid, Im just wondering what hands would you expect to see open-limped from MP in FullRing. QJ/JJ/AQo/Q9s type hands? |
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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| bigspenda73 |
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| The problem with the b/f line is that it's highly exploitable against thinking opponents. | |||||||||
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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| bigspenda73 |
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| at 3/6+ nowadays ALOT of them. | |||||||||
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| Ragnar4 |
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1) No-one folds for one more bet unless they are extremely Weak tight. So you don't thin the field 2) Someone may have slowplayed a big hand hoping for a 3-bet isolation. Or they may decide on a whim that limping was wrong, and re-raise for isolation. The hands that do this, all have your KQo crushed. 3) This is the most important. The only time we make money is when our opponents make mistakes, if no-one ever made a mistake, Poker would be nothing more than gambling. There is absolutely no way you can force your opponents on the flop to make a poor choice by calling a bet they don't have odds to draw to. (with 8 bets in the pot at this point You can call a 3 outer hoping to hit, as long as you only call one bet, and get out on the turn if you miss...) Even a check-raise, assuming the guy to your immediate right is going to bet and you raise, doesn't fold out a gutshot draw because he'll be getting 6.5-1 at this point, and can get to 10.5-1 heads up. Razor thin, but odds none-the less. This puts us in a predicament. Because you can't give a free card to someone trying to draw out on top pair good kicker. It's marginal enough as it is. A raise from the BB, bloats the pot into a situation with 3 other players that you simply can't protect your hand if you catch. Those 3 arguments are the most logical reasons I can come up with as to why raising anything from BB, or SB other than AA, KK, QQ, or AKs is probably a -ev play. Ace-poop suited could stand some pot-bloating every once in a while, and King-poop suited, if the table is extremely passive. Maaaaaaybe small pocket pairs if you're feeling silly, but only rarely, because the hands that catch when you play these hands, aren't "protect the better hand" situations. They are "get the money in, because I have an equity edge" situations. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Chopper |
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1) but, dont i usually have an equity edge here with KQ in a limped pot...at these stakes? that was my main reason for raising. i didnt care too much about iso-moves. i wanted to push the "equity edge" i thought i may have. again, at these stakes, with the passives, i doubt that was very smart. 2)true, but would you do that? with these callers? you would have to sit to MY left and have a read on me that i will raise from the blinds to do that...intelligently (again, realizing the stakes, that may be too much credit). more likely, when you want to do something of this nature, you not directly on my left, and are hoping that people will fold to MY raise, and you can squeeze out any remaining...i would think. 3) these are the things i NEED to still learn. when chasing gutshots, or 3 outers are correct...and when it is ME creating the situation. that would be a stoopid thing to do when i am not soooted myself...or carrying suited A. thank you. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Ragnar4 |
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Ok Chopper. Write a list of hands that you, yourself would limp from early position, a list of hands from middle, and a list of hands from late. 1) Take this whole list of hands, and compare it to KQo. Can you really concisely argue now that you feel you have an equity edge. If you can, then by all means, raise. The problem, is this: If a pair of aces, against 4 other people wins less than half of the time, KQo against 4 other people is a very marginal hand. 2) I can't say that they would do that. It's a strange play in limit, but one to look out for nonetheless. A pretty typical 3/6 live play is to limp ace poop suited, and if anyone raises, re-raise and create a bloated pot that is pursued aggressively from there on out. I hate it, because it seems to bite me in the butt. I always seem to fold when I'm ahead, and the one time I sniff it out, they river the damn flush. 3) What's terrible? I can make this argument, talk about the odds, and the numbers, and John Vorhaus says this, Sklansky and Malmuth say that. But when I'm in a game, and I see KQo I think the same thing. "Gotta thin the field" RAAAAAIIIISSE! |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Chopper |
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good to see we fight the same tendency. i love the different challenge limit poses when compared to NL. but being a NL player first, i am always looking for a reason to raise. problem in limit is that weaker hands are still priced along, making it much harder to protect my hand and prevent a showdown. (of course, i am stating the obvious here). i am slowly learning this, and why i cant just bust a raise off whenever i feel i am strong. but still waffle back and forth on concepts like equity edge, raising for value, and when to/not to properly fold the river. these concepts are made rather easy for you in a NL game because the sizes of the bets pretty much make up your mind for you. again, thats why i like limit...it helps my NL game immensly. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Ragnar4 |
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Yeah. I actually like No-Limit cuz I feel it helps my limit game. I don't want you to get the wrong impression here. I think if you aren't raising every time you're ahead, you're missing value. But I just don't think KQo is ahead here by any sort of reasonable raising standard. I honestly think you're behind at this point, and tied with 1 or 2 other guys for possible 2nd place equity. I'm not trying to make you play a little more passively in Limit, lord knows that's how you lose money. I'm just saying this one time, and most of the instances like it, a Raise out of the BB is simply no good for Unsuited high cards. Something that doesn't get talked about a lot, but seems very, VERY important to me. AKo is an extremely good hand up front, because you can raise with it and thin the field AK0 is good in the middle with only one limper before you, because you can raise and thin the field. AKo is only a mediocre hand late, with 2 other limpers, because your raise, will still get the BB with just about any 2, and the 2 limpers. As you gravitate towards the back of the calling order, it quickly loses power. Not to say you shouldn't play it. But Since a raise won't help, this is a perfect time to use deception. Catch your ace, and get paid. As for Equity Edge, and Raising for Value, and When to fold the river, those just become something tangible, that you can "feel" Look at the board, see the texture of the flop, and it becomes obvious quite quickly that you may not be best right now, but you certainly have the best of it. That's where I make the most of my money in Limit. Raising, and re-raising, and being aggressive with draws that are nasty. In fact, anything more than 8 outs and I'm going nuts against 2 other players. It pisses them off to no end, and when I have a decent hand, they are more likely to mis-read it. Instead seeing the board has a flush possibility, or a straight possibility. The flush and straight miss, and they start betting again, it's just too bad I've had a set all along. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Chopper |
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i couldnt agree with you more...philosophically speaking. in the beginning, when i felt like i could KILL the game (because i read a book..lol), i was on a crazy heater for about 5 k hands. my rate was over 8/100, better than i was at NL at the time. partly because i was doing stuff like what you mentioned. going crazy with big draws...they hit. and going crazy protecting my sets...they held. obviously, i felt on top of the world...bring on jennifer harmon, right? then, i started realizing that i wasnt playing optimumly, and coincidentally i cooled off, both variance and more sensible play. and then the cold deck kept missing me. i was raising my panties, and taking off my bra (figure of speech, i'm a dude, and not a cross-dresser either.), doing whatever i could to get the deck to notice me and throw me a joker or two...and nothing. i gave all my winnings back, and was now a break even player. started playing hard again, for fun, and the deck started hitting me square again...go figure. so, in short, i agree with you that you need to push EVERY edge you can. but where i disagree a bit is with these specific stakes. they are so low... i think that because people will call with all sorts of crap, priced in or not. and i want the best of it pf. i also want them to pay. i think you may underestimate the power range that has a significant edge against them pf. it may be wider than you are giving credit. i am not saying that i know more than you...god knows i prolly dont. however, i do see the point about the off suit power cards being crap if you cant thin the field...i dont usually play those either...usually. and i'm glad to know this wasnt a "good play." i dont remember if i mentioned this, but i wanted to post a "marginal" play...to see what you guys thought. that way i could remember how to play the situation more optimally the next time. i prolly had a wild hair up my butt when i raised this hand, and then played it out...and later thought, "hmmm. i doubt that was the best way to play it, lets see what the FTR guys think about where i went wrong." and thats why i posted it. thanks for the advice. glad to know i am now on the right track. more hands, please...lol. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| pokerfanatic |
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| am i reading that hand wrong or did you actualy CALL the river with a stright? i'd raise given i figure him to have a set most the time here, if he 3 bets call... rake is already caped out im sure by this point so no reason not to put the raise in... | |||||||||
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| euphoricism |
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| B/C is better than c/r because villain will check behind on the river a fairly large % of the time since the obvious draws just got completed. | |||||||||
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| Chopper |
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seems dumb to bet or raise a straight when you are confident (right or wrong) that the river landed the flush. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| pokerfanatic |
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 hehe thus my thinking to pop it lol...of course i probably would have lead out and called a raise though not c/r... like Eupho said a lot of times he will check behind when a draw like that hits the board... way i see it you beat a lot of hands that he could have... set, TP, you might split if he has a Q, only thing you out right lose to is a Flush... so i want to put in a bet here on the river for value thinking i'm probably good a lot of times here. Now if he wants to raise just the straight then he's a jack ass given that it looks as if you could have easily hit a flush yourself when you lead the river... |
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| Chopper |
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| so, even with the flush up, you b/c here? | |||||||||
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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The consensus was to b/c I am going to be stubborn and stay with my c/c I think a c/r is suicide as we have to fold to a 3bet which is just sick to me. |
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| pokerfanatic |
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| my line is b/c here... if I had a read that he’d bet a weaker hand then me with that board out there then a c/r isn't so bad but that takes a hella read so you're probably bettor off b/c anyways... I personally think by checking you are being a pussy, like I said, he’s not going to cap JUST a FD at this level, his cap to me says that he has TTP, TP, SET, OESFD, or made straight by the river you lose to ONE of those hands the OESFD… not betting is just plan being a pussy… | |||||||||
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| DrivingDog |
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I think it's a tough decision on the river here. I'd probably b/c on the lower levels against typical donks, based on the fact that they're more likely to call than to bet if you check. On the higher levels, i'd c/c against aggressive/ tricky players and b/f against passive/straightforward ones, which i guess is a good argument for being aggressive and tricky. As far as the issue of raising with KQ0 into three limpers goes, Sklansky does give several solid reasons why it might be better to check: 1) you're unlikely to thin the field - how often does someone limp in and then fold to a single raise? 2) you're oop. 3) you give implied odds to opponents to chase weak draws on the flop. That is, a person who flops a gutshot is making a big mistake calling a flop bet with 5:1 odds, but is making a marginal play calling a flop bet with 9:1 odds. Better to give him a chance to make a poor call by keeping the pot small preflop. 4) you add deceptive value to your hand. Thus, if you get a strong flop you are more likely to get calls from players who are dominated because they don't fear they are up against a better hand. E.g., you have KQo, the flop comes AQ2 and you bet. You're more likely to get a call from someone with Q5 (three outs to beat you) than had you raised preflop, because they won't put you on a big hand. Also if someone raises you can be pretty sure you're behind, whereas had you raised preflop someone with A rag might just call the flop and then you don't know where you are. 5) you'll be glad you didn't raise if you whiff the flop, which will happen much more often than not with two big unsuited cards. E.g., you raise the limpers with KQ0. Now the flop comes A73, 987, three to a flush and you have no flush card), three uncoordinated cards below your KQ, you can just c/f and you've saved a bet preflop. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| dsaxton |
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| I didn't know that check-calling the river was even an option. Seems like an obvious bet/call. | |||||||||
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| DrivingDog |
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You may be right about betting out the river dsaxton, i'm really not sure. The thing is that there is just such a wide range of hands your opponent may have (and my experience is that overbetting the flop with a flush draw HU is not that unusual a play for some aggressive/tricky players) that I think that specifically against an agg/tricky at a higher level c/c might be best. Basically I think you want to feign a set or two pair and induce him to bluff with these weaker hands. Remember that he doesn't know what you have either. But he does know that Ace of clubs is a huge scare card to anyone with two pair or a set, so if he's agg/tricky and you've checked that's a big fat green light to bet his two pair or set and hope you'll fold a set or two pair yourself. With 6BB in the pot it only has to work 17% of the time for him to gain, and if he puts you on two pair or a set because you checked he'll probably think those are pretty good odds that you'll either fold to a bet or maybe even call with a worse hand (especially if he has AA or KK). From his perspective if you c/r him he can safely muck his set or two pair. If you just call and have him beat oh well he's earned some fairly cheap bluffing points. However, if you bet out you are telling him you have at least a big set or (more likely) a straight and you're willing to risk being raised. So if he has any sense he's probably folding his JJ, TT, or two pair and you gain nothing. He might call with a worse hand like AA or KK but like i said he'd probably bet those hands if you checked to him anyways, so no profit in betting out against them. If he has a straight he's calling and again you gain nothing. If he has a flush he'll raise you and you lose two bets. By checking here you give the agg/tricky a chance to bluff when he's behind and keep him from costing you two bets when he's ahead, and of course you still break even if you're tied. But like i said that play would require a very solid read of your opponent, and i think against most opponents b/c is probably best. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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