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ArcticKnight
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02-05-2005, 11:39 PM
Post subject: Help - Why do I even bother raising Pre-Flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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At the 6H tables, I am geting a little miffed with the general lack of respect that ANY preflop raise sems to have at 2/5 and 10/20 games I play in.
When I am sitting with QQ and raise, I rarely find that anyone folds.(even on reraises)
It may be be fine to face one or two chasers, but who wants to face 4 of them with QQ or a similiar hand. I just find that otherwise good players will call with anything if they already have 1 bet in.
Lately I have been raising strong hands from early position, but limp/calling from late position with even QQ. I find all I'm doing is signaling "big pair" to whole field when I raise, and aslo building the pot for some smuck to ahve better odds to chase whatever...
Other than mixing things up (or playing NL), any suggestions
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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more often than not you won't be able to make up the lost preflop expectation with your postflop expectation if you don't raise preflop.
your opponents are going to call whether they have odds or not. just because their call is "correct" postflop doesn't mean their preflop call was correct also.
you increase your variance when you raise preflop, simutaneously increasing your expectation.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Keep at it, it's a swingy game.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Raise preflop for value, Not to get people out of the pot. I only wish that many people call my raises...I'd start raising with 78s if they did.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I only wish that many people call my raises...I'd start raising with 78s if they did.
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You need A LOT of callers for that raise to have value.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Thanks folks, but the core question -- lack of respect for raises --is what I'd really like to hear about.
There seems to be no way to shake people off their weak Aces once they 1bet, and these are the killer hands for JJ, QQ, KK
As far as raising for value, I agree. Things will take care of themselves over time.
But I don't agree that raises should not aslo be used to reduce the field. With lots of limpers, it is importnat for me to redcue the field when I have high pairs. If I have AK or AQ or suited cards, I don't realy care if I reduce the field, as I can usually get a good read on where I am post-flop.
Also, it's not hard to dump AK post flop.
When you have QQ and you get
a flop like AH, 10D, 9D, it's harder to get a sence of where you are at (at least for me it is). Anyway, I ramble...
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
Thanks folks, but the core question -- lack of respect for raises --is what I'd really like to hear about.
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you should be happy people don't respect your raises or else you will only win the blinds or get called/raised by better hands.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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your QQ is going to get crushed many times but once in a while it will hold up multiway, or even spike a set. when that happens, you want it to repay you for all your losses. so you want a lot of people in the pot paying as much as they can to call you down. you want those calls, man. believe me, you want them. you lose 1 BB each time you raise QQ preflop and miss the flop. you win dozens of BB's when you hit. so you can afford to lose with QQ a few times and you still come out ahead.
it's the same as doubling down on 11 in blackjack. you can't possibly expect to hit a ten every time. but when you do, it pays you back for the times you missed.
with regard to getting respect, listen to the other guys. you do NOT want a reputation for being tight because nobody will ever pay you for your good hands. you want those idiots to call you with their 72o's. why do you think all of us in here are seeking out the loosest tables we can find? because we enjoy bad beats? no, because we enjoy HUGE POTS.
ChezJ
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
If I have AK or AQ or suited cards, I don't realy care if I reduce the field, as I can usually get a good read on where I am post-flop.
Also, it's not hard to dump AK post flop.
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If you can get a good read, that's great. But I ALWAYS want to limit the field with these cards. Doesn't AK lose strength rapidly in multi-way?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
There seems to be no way to shake people off their weak Aces once they 1bet, and these are the killer hands for JJ, QQ, KK
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Generally speaking, memory availability oveestimates the amount of times an A falls when you have KK (seems like it always happens).
As far as no respect, in 6max, I love this. Even though you want fewer people in the pot, all it takes is to fold 2-3 people and you are in far better shape with big cards. I think playing a bit more aggressively in 6max helps too, because people start discounting your raises. Then when you hit a monster, you can bet, bet, bet and they pay you off. Of course, the swings are much bigger this way.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
If you can get a good read, that's great. But I ALWAYS want to limit the field with these cards. Doesn't AK lose strength rapidly in multi-way?
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AK is a monster with any number of opponents.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
If you can get a good read, that's great. But I ALWAYS want to limit the field with these cards. Doesn't AK lose strength rapidly in multi-way?
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AK is a monster with any number of opponents. |
I agree, I used to want to Limit the field everytime with these hands. Now I just pray for a mistake. I'll raise to force people to make mistakes in cold-calling me. I'll raise for value. Sure, I cringe when I get AA in the BB with 5 callers, but that just means a big pot for you if you win. Preflop play wont win you the pots. Superior POST flop play will. Stop giving people odds to call you down, work in some check/raises. If raising the flop will only increase the pot and give odds to your opponents, wait to raise until the turn. Its these things that determine if you win the pot more often than preflop play.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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AK is wonderful multiway because if you hit TPTK, you are going to get called down (i.e. paid) by several folks with TP weaker kicker. You just have to watch out for AA/KK, which usually make themselves obvious, and suited A-rag/K-rag's that reverse dominate you w 2pr.
ChezJ
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
AK is wonderful multiway because if you hit TPTK, you are going to get called down (i.e. paid) by several folks with TP weaker kicker. You just have to watch out for AA/KK, which usually make themselves obvious, and suited A-rag/K-rag's that reverse dominate you w 2pr.
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If I connect with AK and you have any of those holdings, I say "good for you" and pay it off.
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Ayce
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In many ways limit is much more subtle than NL you have to chisel away at small edges. In NL if you get the big pots right more often than not you can have a multitude of leaks and get away with it. I know, I do.
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