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help w/ JJ

  
 
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okiman
Old 07-29-2008, 01:18 AM     Post subject: help w/ JJ #1 (permalink)  
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okiman
I've started tracking my play to improve my game and am having problems w/ JJ (one of the few pps I'm losing) and need to figure out if it's variance (w/ less than 4,000 hands tracked) or how I play JJ is a leak in my game.

Hand 1:

Turn opponents were (blind):36/17/1.1 (42) and 44/0/0.8(34)

Hand 2:

Opponent was: 20/8/0.5 (25)


What should my line be on these 2 hands?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8, 6, 4 (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB


PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J, J.
2 folds, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, MP1 caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 9, A, 8 (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB
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Old 07-29-2008, 06:12 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I would raise the flop on the second hand. Is this a leak?
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KoRnholio
Old 07-29-2008, 07:16 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Both look okay without reads.

In #2 raising is spewy. When he caps preflop the only hands we're now beating are pocket 10's. If he has QQ/KK he's probably going into check-call mode all the way to showdown.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Chopper
Old 07-29-2008, 02:20 PM #4 (permalink)  
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i dont think your flop bet in hand one protects your hand. you likely have an equity advantage, but one bet wont thin the field or make them play incorrectly to draw. therefore, i try for c/r if the bet comes from the right spot, or wait for a safe turn where the bets double. if i wait for the turn, and its safe, when the bet comes from early, i raise. if it checks to me, i lead out.

i still dont think you can fold yet to the K in a 6BB, raised pf pot. when UTG+1 bows out, i think you need to call here. personally, this is a great spot to bluff. the K scares people, and i will semi-bluff here with only a draw myself. this pot is kind of big and you have a solid chunk of equity, imo. and, your read states SB is not exactly passive.

hand two... folded too early again, imo. its a capped pot! you cant go anywhere for one bet when you have 2nd pair, bd str8 AND bd flush draws. you are getting 12.5:1 to peel. if you thought he was full of it, you may raise him just get him to check off the turn to you.

all that said, you may be folding good stuff too early.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-29-2008, 04:15 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I would raise the flop on the second hand. Is this a leak?
Think so. He capped and any hand that didn't have us beat preflop has us beat now. He might fold KK/QQ to your raise but that's a small part of his range and JJ is hard to play if he doesn't fold to the flop raise. Are you going to bet again on the turn?

Bottom line is we're behind everything at this point and its' too hard to bluff him off the few hands that are better than ours.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-29-2008, 04:34 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i dont think your flop bet in hand one protects your hand. you likely have an equity advantage, but one bet wont thin the field or make them play incorrectly to draw. therefore, i try for c/r if the bet comes from the right spot, or wait for a safe turn where the bets double. if i wait for the turn, and its safe, when the bet comes from early, i raise. if it checks to me, i lead out.
You can't c/r to protect the pot in the flop - you can only c/r for value because you're next to last to act. If you check and it gets checked around you are missing too much value. So only play is to bet flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i still dont think you can fold yet to the K in a 6BB, raised pf pot. when UTG+1 bows out, i think you need to call here. personally, this is a great spot to bluff. the K scares people, and i will semi-bluff here with only a draw myself. this pot is kind of big and you have a solid chunk of equity, imo. and, your read states SB is not exactly passive.
SB calls two cold preflop so hands like KQs, KJs, KTs are all definitely in his range. 1.1 is not that aggressive really. Once you bet the turn the only hand you're folding is a pp smaller than kings, and a lot of players won't fold those either. So a semi-bluff c/r would be a badly-timed play on his part, especially with two players behind him. Doesn't mean he won't try it, it's just a bad play. In any case I expect him to show up with Kx here almost always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
hand two... folded too early again, imo. its a capped pot! you cant go anywhere for one bet when you have 2nd pair, bd str8 AND bd flush draws. you are getting 12.5:1 to peel. if you thought he was full of it, you may raise him just get him to check off the turn to you.
Again, think about what kinds of hands your opponent has. He has a pfr of 8%. He raised then capped from early position. What does this? AA/KK/QQ/AK. AQ maybe. Now you're best hope is that there are no overcards on the flop and in that case you have decent equity vs. his range. The Ace on the flop changes that to about 5-10%.

And he donks the flop. Does he do this with KK/QQ? Why would he? He knows you're not folding an Ace, so he has no reason to bluff this board.

Please don't even think about putting more money in this pot.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 07-29-2008, 05:48 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i dont think your flop bet in hand one protects your hand. you likely have an equity advantage, but one bet wont thin the field or make them play incorrectly to draw. therefore, i try for c/r if the bet comes from the right spot, or wait for a safe turn where the bets double. if i wait for the turn, and its safe, when the bet comes from early, i raise. if it checks to me, i lead out.
You can't c/r to protect the pot in the flop - you can only c/r for value because you're next to last to act. If you check and it gets checked around you are missing too much value. So only play is to bet flop.
what i meant was you would c/r only if the lead came from the right spot. here it clearly wont. this isnt a c/r for value situation, obv.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i still dont think you can fold yet to the K in a 6BB, raised pf pot. when UTG+1 bows out, i think you need to call here. personally, this is a great spot to bluff. the K scares people, and i will semi-bluff here with only a draw myself. this pot is kind of big and you have a solid chunk of equity, imo. and, your read states SB is not exactly passive.
SB calls two cold preflop so hands like KQs, KJs, KTs are all definitely in his range. 1.1 is not that aggressive really. Once you bet the turn the only hand you're folding is a pp smaller than kings, and a lot of players won't fold those either. So a semi-bluff c/r would be a badly-timed play on his part, especially with two players behind him. Doesn't mean he won't try it, it's just a bad play. In any case I expect him to show up with Kx here almost always.[/quote]
i give you that. but, what i was saying was that I will do this when I am in villain's shoes. i will semibluff this K when i hold the str8 or flush draw because the K scares the jeebies out of villains. its a great spot for VILLAIN to semibluff and with a pot getting this big, i dont think its an obvious fold. down here, they also call two cold pf with suited conn's, small pockets, and A-raggish (especially suited) hands...the hands that may semibluff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
hand two... folded too early again, imo. its a capped pot! you cant go anywhere for one bet when you have 2nd pair, bd str8 AND bd flush draws. you are getting 12.5:1 to peel. if you thought he was full of it, you may raise him just get him to check off the turn to you.
Again, think about what kinds of hands your opponent has. He has a pfr of 8%. He raised then capped from early position. What does this? AA/KK/QQ/AK. AQ maybe. Now you're best hope is that there are no overcards on the flop and in that case you have decent equity vs. his range. The Ace on the flop changes that to about 5-10%.

And he donks the flop. Does he do this with KK/QQ? Why would he? He knows you're not folding an Ace, so he has no reason to bluff this board.

Please don't even think about putting more money in this pot.[/quote]

so, even at 12:1, you dont think its worth a flop peel? you guys are always telling me to stop giving so much credit for villains' hands. isnt it the same when you say, "he knows your not folding an A?" i know that's common sense, but, again, these guys dont all have common sense.

i am just trying to apply what i've been told, and have read. 12:1 are great odds for even the slightest potential, and, to me, 2 J's and 2 bd draws are better than "slightest potential" when you weigh in implied odds of villain carrying an A, K, or both.

sorry for the butchered quote boxes. i have several things going on at once right now.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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DrivingDog
Old 07-29-2008, 06:09 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I hear you Chopper, and I'm probably biased by playing against tougher competition.

Calling down in hand 1 is not horrible, and is certainly the right play against some opponents.

I'm still pretty sure about hand 2 though. The problem is your two J outs might not be good and you're not really getting 12:1 to chase the backdoor draws since they'll cost you another bet on the turn. If you factor that in you're getting more like 6:1 on about a 16:1 shot of one of those draws coming in. Assuming a J is a clean out doesn't make up for that disparity.

But really this is another example of why reads are soooo important. You need to keep track of who is capable of goofy plays like capping pf HU with with a hand like KQ or (insert other hand that doesn't have us crushed here).

Maybe at these levels the default play is to assume your opponents are bad until you see evidence otherwise. For me it's always been the other way around.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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okiman
Old 07-30-2008, 03:18 AM #9 (permalink)  
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okiman
Thanks Guys. My thought process was similar to DrivingDog's, but the more I loosen up at these stakes, the better I've been doing and was wondering if if either or both of these hands were opportunities to loosen up even more for increased profit.
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