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Help Settle a debate...

  
 
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JJDylan
Old 04-30-2005, 06:23 AM     Post subject: Help Settle a debate... #1 (permalink)  
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ok, so this hand was posted over in the forums at fullcontactpoker (negranu's site) and ive got 4 people disagreeing with me in a debate over the advice i gave the 'hero' in this hand...

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, K.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T, 8, Q (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 raises, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) A (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (13 BB) Q (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, BB folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB



Now his original question was whether or not to 3-bet the river...i responded by saying that he should 3-bet the flop, raise the turn and check/call the river...others on the site are saying that he should raise this pre-flop, call the flop and not raise till the turn which i think is an absolutley horrid way to play this. Any thoughts? Am i right in my thinking here?
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Demiparadigm
Old 04-30-2005, 06:49 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Call pre flop. KJo is a weak hand, even wiht position. I fold this in EP in an agressive game.

On the flop, you don't want to 3 bet, because you are looking for overcalls. A 3 bet will probably chase players out who you want to pay you off. A raise would be a good play if MP3 hadn't done it.

The turn call I think is the best play also, since a raise here will definitely chase out the players who called. Since there are 3 players still to act, a call is correct hoping you get at least 2 calls behind you. Without the chance for overcalls, a raise would be correct.

On the river I definitely 3 bet. A full house is unlikely given the action. button probably just had trip queens.
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JJDylan
Old 04-30-2005, 07:20 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Call pre flop. KJo is a weak hand, even wiht position. I fold this in EP in an agressive game.

On the flop, you don't want to 3 bet, because you are looking for overcalls. A 3 bet will probably chase players out who you want to pay you off. A raise would be a good play if MP3 hadn't done it.

The turn call I think is the best play also, since a raise here will definitely chase out the players who called. Since there are 3 players still to act, a call is correct hoping you get at least 2 calls behind you. Without the chance for overcalls, a raise would be correct.

On the river I definitely 3 bet. A full house is unlikely given the action. button probably just had trip queens.
I think because this is party .5/1 you're not going to scare anyone away with a 3-bet.....i still think a call is best on the flop, possible flush and boat..too scary for me to 3 bet it anyways :P
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honsheung
Old 04-30-2005, 03:20 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I will play check call in river,others same as JJdylan.

My rule is simple, too many people see the flop , so someone gonna have a flush in river when the third spade hit.

It's a misfortune if it really happens.
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Fnord
Old 04-30-2005, 03:36 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Wow, this is tough.

Pre-flop:
With 2 limpers in front I still think you have fold equity on an Axx flop also you have a good chance to steal the button, so I like a raise. However, this is a big "It depends." If between UTG+1, MP3, Button and the blinds you have a lot of calling stations and/or the Button really likes to cold call (find a new table), then I like a call better. Raising would drastically change how post-flop would play.

Flop:
You have the best draw and really welcome callers. However, with the aggressor acting right before you it's going to bet hard to milk it if you hit. Also, consider that if he has Qx your King might be good. Finally, stealing the button might give you a free river card. So I'm inclined to 3-bet, but it's really close.

Turn:
With 8BB in the pot, I'm liking the raise so we can get into a fight with a worse hand. I REALLY like a raise here if the other players are likely to cold-call with a pair.

River:
Bet and call a raise. I think you're good too often to meekly check/call this or even fold to a raise. Also, consider that as 2nd to last to act a check/call doesn't have much of a chance to draw a bluff.
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honsheung
Old 04-30-2005, 03:53 PM #6 (permalink)  
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yes, right, it is a backdoor flush ,if any ,
I mistakenly put it a flush draw in flop

so bet call in river is my play. i agree with fnord
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ChezJ
Old 04-30-2005, 05:24 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 i'm raising that turn to defend against not only the backdoor flush but a split pot if the river is a K or J. that Q is just awful but i still bet-call. i do not 3bet a guy who limps along the whole way and suddenly wakes up out of nowhere on the river, especially after i wake up out of nowhere. i wouldn't be surprised if he has 8 9
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