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chardrian

04-29-2005, 04:27 PM Post subject: Help the Newbie

#1 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

I have been playing on-line for a little over a year now and am up overall, but I feel like I am just beginning to truly understand the game. For whatever reason the 3/6 5 max limit table has been my bread and butter. So I feel like I play pretty well overall, but since I have not read any books, I am still a loss at a lot of the terminology.
Here's my question - what do you call it when you raise a player on either the flop or turn just to get a better read as to what kind of hand they really have?
E.g. I have position heads up against a guy who basically calls every hand and raises whenever he gets an A (doesn't matter if it's suited or what the kicker is).
Flop comes out 4s 8c Jd. He raised pre-flop, I was BB and called with 8h Kh. He bets the flop, I call.
Turn is 2h. He bets, I raise.
I had been calling this a value bet, since I'm trying to determine the value of my opponent's hand and hadn't figured out why so many people were laughing at me until recently. So what is it called?
p.s. he called the raise on the turn, river was a Ks, he bet, I raised, he raised, I capped. He actually had a strong preflop of big slick for once and got bit in the ass when he saw his lovely king catch on the river.

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|~|ypermegachi

04-29-2005, 05:59 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

that would be called a value raise.

"value" means you want them to call.

there's no term for betting/raising for information. that's called betting/raising for information (which is a bad tactic btw and can cost you a lot of money)

chardrian

04-29-2005, 07:29 PM

#3 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

So what's it called when you raise hoping they will fold?

Also - why is it such a bad tactic? I agree it's bad if you were to do it while married to a hand that you wouldn't fold but... I do it a lot, depending on position and it seems to work.

E.g. I have QQ raise and get two callers. I'm second to act.

Flop = [KT2} rainbow. #1 bets, I raise, #3 calls, #1 calls.

Turn = 8. #1 checks, I check, #3 checks.

River = J. #1 checks, I check, #3 bets, #1 calls, I fold.

Happens a lot. Depending on my opponents, I also will play this hand with a bet on the turn and see if I get raised and then wait to see what to do depending on how many callers. Or I will fold a reraise on the flop (doubting that the person is aggro betting an open-end str8 with JQ).

I would rather lose two small bets on flop than lose 2 big bets on turn and river calling someone (or someones) down. Why is this so bad?

ChezJ

04-29-2005, 07:45 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

as hyper said, what you are describing is "betting for information." some call it a probe bet if you are first to bet. you are looking to see who will call, who will raise, so you can save money on the future rounds if you think you're behind.

i think betting for information is far more common in NL where you can just bet a small amount to save a huge amount. whereas in limit, your bets are fixed so if you do too many probe bets, you end up leaking chips. (i used to do this.)

i think if you were calling this "value" betting to other people, then they were probably laughing because you generally only "value bet" strong hands, not marginal ones like middle pair.

when you have a very strong hand (str8, flush, boat), you want people to call your bets so that the size (value) of the pot will grow before you scoop it.

when you have a marginal hand, you don't really want people to call... you want them to fold. this is called bluffing, semi-bluffing (if you have outs to improve), or "protecting your hand" (if you suspect your opponents are all drawing/bluffing).

check out small stakes holdem ("SSH") from 2+2 publishing and read the chapter on "protecting your hand." it is quite eye opening.

ChezJ

ChezJ

04-29-2005, 07:54 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

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Location: Washington, D.C.

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EXAMPLE.

i am dealt J

and i raise pre flop. i get heads up vs a tight aggressive.

flop comes K

and i bet first. he raises. i call, but weakly.

turn is a blank. i check, he bets again. i have a draw to the spade flush but i don't know if it's live or dead. he could have K

or K

or T

or none of the above. he could have nothing and just be betting into my obvious weakness.

i need more information. so i raise (checkraise actually). it is a semi bluff because i have a couple draws if he just has kings. but what i really want is for him to think i trapped him, so he'll just fold. this is not a value bet, because if he calls, i may be beaten. if he re-raises, i'm going to fold because he either has way better than TP and/or he's got the A

in his hand, meaning i'm drawing dead. he just calls.

river is a

, we check down and my flush beats his.... 5

!!

ChezJ

chardrian

04-29-2005, 08:45 PM

#6 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

The reason people were laughing at me was because I was calling a probe bet (I like that term) a value bet. I do agree I probably get into ruts where I leak chips (after a couple of bad beats you convince yourself that your next mid pair has GOT to win, etc.). But I still am curious why it is such a bad tactic. I especially like doing it when I am first to act and flop comes out something like JJ7 or QQ8. If I have the 7 or 8 I will usually bet the flop. I either end up winning outright or I will get called with someone who has trips and can then easily fold the turn. But a check there and then whoever has position bets does nothing for me but make me call and then check the turn again and then call again if there is another bet on the turn. Hard to get away from two pair when the person who has position always tries to bet his way into winning the pot.

chardrian

04-29-2005, 08:53 PM

#7 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

EXAMPLE
5 player max 3/6 table
Im BB with 8d Ks - 2 players call, SB folds and I check.
Flop = [8s] [Qd] [Qh]
I bet, middle man calls, button calls.
Turn = [7d]
I check, middle man bets, button smooth calls (stupidly but hey it happens a lot), I can now fold.
River = [Ac]
Middle man hit with his Ad 3d and bets
Button finally raises with his 6s Qs
Middle man is now smart enough not to reraise and just calls, and I lost one smacking SB and am loving the table I am at.
Why is this such a bad tactic?

ChezJ

04-29-2005, 09:06 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

i never said it was a bad tactic. but if you do it too often and people pick up on it, they will stop respecting your bets entirely and you will lose the advantage of sometimes picking up the pot.

btw you are correct to bet your 2 pr on the flop in EP. but that's not a value bet. you may have the best hand but it is vulnerable so you need to protect it from draws by betting.

ChezJ

|~|ypermegachi

04-29-2005, 11:40 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

i generally only raise for value or for fold equity (aka moving people off their hands)

raising just for "information" is very expensive, and the information you receive is never accurate.

you have QJ on the flop and the flop is 46J and you check to the preflop raiser who bets. you "raise for information." they 3bet back, and you're unsure, but you might as well call and see if you improve on the turn. you check, and they take their free card. river comes K, and you bet, they raise and show you AK.

especially in shorthanded games...getting raised back doesn't mean much. it can mean anywhere from i have a hand, to i don't have a hand so screw off and fold.

Element187

04-30-2005, 02:40 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

dont check through when you have an overpair, keep betting until someone pops back at you, then go into check and call mode.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

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