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gop2004
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08-10-2006, 07:35 PM
Post subject: Help, I think I've plateaued!
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UB SNG
Posts: 92
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Until 2 years ago I'd never played one hand of poker. Then my son was born and I spent a lot of nights sitting in front of a muted TV feeding the kid or rocking him to sleep. I watched hundreds of hours of tournament NL and got really interested. I headed to the local Indian casino and got my clock cleaned for 2 weeks at 2/4 limit. The wife and I took a short trip to Vegas shortly after and I read Phil Helmuths "Play Poker Like the Pros" on the plane. Still got beat but at least I could see why I was losing. On advice of a friend I started playing micro limit at UB. I opened an account with $100 and started playing penny limits and reading articles, etc. My philosophy was: when I increase my BR by 250 BB I'll move up a level. I pretty much zipped thru the penny levels, had a harder time at .5/.10 and now I've been stuck at .25/.50 for some time (over 5000 hands). Swinging 100 BB up and down. I tried an experiment and dropped back to .5/.10 and steadily went up 100 BB in a week or two. I then jumped up to .50/1.00 and played about 1000 hands. I pretty much duplicated my frustrating .25/.50 results. I've studied starting hands, position, Pot odds, implied odds. I keep notes on playeres that I run into often enough to read. I consider myself tight/agressive but I throw in some passive and maniac plays to limit predictability. I'm told that everyone plateaus at some point. What I'm looking for is what some of you have done to move past it. How do I identify holes in my own game?
Sorry for the length. I wanted you to have some background.
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Those who wander are often actually lost.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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im not a limit player, but dont get too wrapped up in a small sample size. 5000 hands at anything. you will see posts on here where some of the best players break even for 25k hands +. keep at it and read all the info in the forums.
welcome to FTR
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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gop2004
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08-10-2006, 08:07 PM
Post subject: Maybe I should quit my job.....
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#3 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UB SNG
Posts: 92
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Jeez, it can take me 2 months to play 5000 hands. I generally play 500 or more every weekend. once in a while double that. During the week I'll usually play a couple or 3 200 hand sessions. Sounds like this could take a while 
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Those who wander are often actually lost.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I read Phil Helmuths "Play Poker Like the Pros"
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Ding Ding Ding!!!
Read Small Stakes Hold'em if you want to improve.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Small hand samples mean absolutely nothing. I'm up to almost 20k of break-even goodness.
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gop2004
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UB SNG
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
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I read Phil Helmuths "Play Poker Like the Pros"
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Ding Ding Ding!!!
Read Small Stakes Hold'em if you want to improve. |
Is that the Sklansky one?
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Those who wander are often actually lost.
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kyc12
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 89
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Yes. I read Phil's book too and I'm not sure his play works at low limits. SSH is super helpful
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gop2004
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08-11-2006, 03:11 AM
Post subject: sklansky book
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#8 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UB SNG
Posts: 92
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Originally Posted by kyc12
Yes. I read Phil's book too and I'm not sure his play works at low limits. SSH is super helpful |
I just ordered SSH. I think I agree with your Hellmuth assessment with regards to low limit. I find the stuff he advocates(like the small pair play he talks about) only work against tight tables or players who obviously are paying attention. I suspect its marginal even then at micro tables. His pre flop stuff generally seems helpful but I'd like more of a technical explanation of his "why's".
I've always wondered how a long term top level tournament pro does in high limit cash games?.
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Those who wander are often actually lost.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I just finished SSHE. Really good book just for the fact that it presents so many ideas about hands that you probably have never even thought of. The book is great if you are going to be playing full ring with a good amount of loose passive players. Online, its tough to find a table like this past 1/2. I read this book for my local casino game, and it has helped a lot.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Many of the ideas in SSH are excellent, but the games the authors describe no longer exist (if they ever did). The authors, Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth, actually include starting hand recommendations for games where an average of 6-8 people see the flop. Never happens outside of the free games at various sites, so I strongly suggest you ignore that particular chart.
If no one mentioned it, pick up PokerTracker. It'll track your game stats in just about any way you can think of, and will probably go a long way toward helping you identify weaknesses in your game. Most people who post regularly here seem to consider it indispensable.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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I agree with arkitekton about the pre-flop suggestions from SSH. Just ignore them. They were designed for really low-stakes casino games, which have a completely different character than any-stakes online games. What the book is great at is giving you a solid theoretical foundation for poker, and teaching you what you should be thinking about during a hand. It's not giving you charts.
SSH improved my play dramatically, and I only skimmed the pre-flop play suggestions in the text, and didn't even look at the charts (well I did several months after I read the book, but only then to answer someone's question about them, not to use them as any sort of guide).
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
Many of the ideas in SSH are excellent, but the games the authors describe no longer exist (if they ever did). The authors, Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth, actually include starting hand recommendations for games where an average of 6-8 people see the flop. Never happens outside of the free games at various sites, so I strongly suggest you ignore that particular chart. |
No way, I've sat in 20/40 games live games with 7 players seeing the flop. Online, you can find some good 6 max games where its always 4-5 way raised preflop.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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Ltrain
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08-11-2006, 02:01 PM
Post subject: Re: sklansky book
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#13 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gop2004
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Originally Posted by kyc12
Yes. I read Phil's book too and I'm not sure his play works at low limits. SSH is super helpful |
I just ordered SSH. I think I agree with your Hellmuth assessment with regards to low limit. I find the stuff he advocates(like the small pair play he talks about) only work against tight tables or players who obviously are paying attention. I suspect its marginal even then at micro tables. His pre flop stuff generally seems helpful but I'd like more of a technical explanation of his "why's".
I've always wondered how a long term top level tournament pro does in high limit cash games?. |
From the hand histories I have seen of Phil playing high stakes cash games, he gets his backside handed to him.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
arkitekton wrote:
Many of the ideas in SSH are excellent, but the games the authors describe no longer exist (if they ever did). The authors, Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth, actually include starting hand recommendations for games where an average of 6-8 people see the flop. Never happens outside of the free games at various sites, so I strongly suggest you ignore that particular chart.
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elipses jeff wrote:
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No way, I've sat in 20/40 games live games with 7 players seeing the flop. Online, you can find some good 6 max games where its always 4-5 way raised preflop.
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lol--WHERE ???
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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online or live?
Regarding live play, there are a LOT of untapped casinos out there spreading LHE at high limits that have yet to be hit by the rounders. Back in January that 20/40 game was golden, tons of rounders with deep stacks that had little to no idea about equity. By April, the game had dried up but the 10/20 game (even the MAIN game) was 7 way preflop. I remember a comment:
"No way anyone could ever make a living at this game, its 7 way every hand"....
Regarding online:
There is ALWAYS an awesome table going, you just have to put in the hard work (or pay someone else in my case) to do it. Party poker has some amazing 10/20 6 max games, usually for about 6-7 hours a day and I can easily put in 2k hands with premium table selection and seat selection. And, this isnt even including the games found at Poker Room, Paradise or Poker Stars. The 6 max games are just awesome.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Everyone thinks they're Phil-Fucking-Ivey and just going to walk into a crappy game with a meaty rake and run over the table.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Everyone thinks they're Phil-Fucking-Ivey and just going to walk into a crappy game with a meaty rake and run over the table.
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QFT, even though it describes me at times... like now, since I'm 8 tabling 1/2 with no table selection and breaking even. Go figure. Rake is pretty harsh, considering moving up to 2/4 just for the .5bb/100 extra earned from a smaller rake.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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gop2004 wrote:
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I consider myself tight/agressive but I throw in some passive and maniac plays to limit predictability.
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There's no need to do this at low stakes games. No one's paying much attention, or knows enough to use information correctly. It's best just to stick to the plays with the highest +EV. Oh, and if you're bluffing much at all at the levels you mentioned, stop. Getting paid off by weak hands that stay in too long is where most of your profit in small stakes poker comes from.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
gop2004 wrote:
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I consider myself tight/agressive but I throw in some passive and maniac plays to limit predictability.
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There's no need to do this at low stakes games. No one's paying much attention, or knows enough to use information correctly. It's best just to stick to the plays with the highest +EV. Oh, and if you're bluffing much at all at the levels you mentioned, stop. Getting paid off by weak hands that stay in too long is where most of your profit in small stakes poker comes from. |
I disagree. Most of the full ring games at the "big sites" are sufficiently rock-tight that you need to adjust to counter that. While what you said might be valid for 0.10/0.20, at 1/2, I firmly believe in taking a LAG approach. They really don't like paying off, so you need to steal more (stealing about 99% has worked for me  ) and isolate thin on the guys you think you can push off hands, or guys whose range is so narrowly and precisely defined that exploiting them is childsplay. However, they are NOT easy games anymore.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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euph--note I wrote only that gop2004 need not mix up his/her play with passive or maniac moves when such involve making less than optimal choices.
As far as extracting the maximum from $1/2 goes, that's an entirely different matter. Might deserve it's own thread...
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gop2004
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08-17-2006, 05:43 AM
Post subject: You're right!
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#21 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UB SNG
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
gop2004 wrote:
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I consider myself tight/agressive but I throw in some passive and maniac plays to limit predictability.
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There's no need to do this at low stakes games. No one's paying much attention, or knows enough to use information correctly. It's best just to stick to the plays with the highest +EV. Oh, and if you're bluffing much at all at the levels you mentioned, stop. Getting paid off by weak hands that stay in too long is where most of your profit in small stakes poker comes from. |
I've looked back at my tracking of hands played, I find that I'm not nearly as successful at that kind of thing as I thought. I've found a few players I can run over nearly everytime but for the most part I've stopped bluffing.
Now a question: I'm at a full ring table in the CO seat. It's checked around to me and I have ATo or KQo and the like. Most of the time I won't call 2bets cold with these but sometimes I'll stab at the blinds with a raise. Is this sound thinking? I don't think of it as a bluff since they are playable hands. Comments?
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Those who wander are often actually lost.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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An open raise by the CO or button is called a "steal-raise" in part because a lot of its efficacy lies in the fact that you're often able to steal the blinds without a flop. Since the raise is often effective that way (and if either blind does call you'll have position on them throughout the hand), you need far less to raise at the cutoff than from early or middle position.
There's some disagreement over exactly what one ought to open raise with from the co, but I doubt you'll find an experienced player who would not raise with AT or KQ. (Or who would cold call a raise with either hand.)
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gop2004
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UB SNG
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
An open raise by the CO or button is called a "steal-raise" in part because a lot of its efficacy lies in the fact that you're often able to steal the blinds without a flop. Since the raise is often effective that way (and if either blind does call you'll have position on them throughout the hand), you need far less to raise at the cutoff than from early or middle position.
There's some disagreement over exactly what one ought to open raise with from the co, but I doubt you'll find an experienced player who would not raise with AT or KQ. (Or who would cold call a raise with either hand.)
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Cool. I'm also finding that after I've picked up the blinds a couple times, even at .25/.50, players start trying to defend, and they're really bad at it. I'm astounded how many times after a couple steals I'll open raise from the CO or button with cat 1 hands and get check/called all the way to the river only to find the caller(or better yet callers)with a low pair<66 or Qhigh or something. I assume this will dry up as I move up in stakes but it's working right now.
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Those who wander are often actually lost.
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MiJ
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 208
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i recommend reading King yao's book (for preflop and river section) and Bob ciaffone's MLHE book for (flop section)....the turn section of ciaffone's book is probably one of the worst in any LHE books.... ever ....but his flop play is more specific than SSHE (which i think is to vague i.e. some strong draws should be raised on the flop others arent..yet S/M dont really go into much detail and the examples at the end of the book suck...while ciaffone includes a bunch of cool examples and HH's at the end of each chapter ala HOH..also the style of play ciaffone talks about in his book are alot like .5/1 and up ...in the end Ciaffones book helped me alot more than SSHE ...(SSHE is still a must read for any beginner tho)
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Cool. I'm also finding that after I've picked up the blinds a couple times, even at .25/.50, players start trying to defend, and they're really bad at it. I'm astounded how many times after a couple steals I'll open raise from the CO or button with cat 1 hands and get check/called all the way to the river only to find the caller(or better yet callers)with a low pair<66 or Qhigh or something. I assume this will dry up as I move up in stakes but it's working right now.
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Ah, the joys of poker. You've got the right approach--after stealing a few times, it can work well to wait until you've got a strong hand before you try again.
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