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Hands to play in 4-handed pots

  
 
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stada
Old 04-21-2005, 09:58 AM     Post subject: Hands to play in 4-handed pots #1 (permalink)  

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stada
I've been playing poker at the PP network for some months now, and have begun doing quite well lately, cashing out a couple of 100$ a month.

I usually make my money - no surprise - on the loose passive tables, where most pots go 5-way or more. There, I think I know which hands are profitable to play, and how to play them (especially suited connectors and pocket pairs).

At tighter tables, where most of the hands goes 2- or 3-way, I rely more on pocket pairs and big cards, and that seems to work ok.

However I find that I don't play well at all at tables where most of the pots go 4-handed, with one or two callers and the blinds entering the pot. Pocket pairs and suited connectors seem to drag home too small pots to be profitable, and my bigger hands are (too) often outdrawn.

So I wonder how you play at these tables, especially which hands you call with if you anticipate the pot going 4-handed.

Which hands are most profitable for you? Do you play hands like KJ or QT in late position with only one caller before you? Do you play smaller pocket pairs (like 66 or 55)? Do you raise in late position (with i.e. AKo or AQo or JJ) if you know you'll still have 3 callers?

Would be very happy with any help on this.
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honsheung
Old 04-21-2005, 10:22 AM     Post subject: Re: Hands to play in 4-handed pots #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stada
I've been playing poker at the PP network for some months now, and have begun doing quite well lately, cashing out a couple of 100$ a month.

I usually make my money - no surprise - on the loose passive tables, where most pots go 5-way or more. There, I think I know which hands are profitable to play, and how to play them (especially suited connectors and pocket pairs).

At tighter tables, where most of the hands goes 2- or 3-way, I rely more on pocket pairs and big cards, and that seems to work ok.

However I find that I don't play well at all at tables where most of the pots go 4-handed, with one or two callers and the blinds entering the pot. Pocket pairs and suited connectors seem to drag home too small pots to be profitable, and my bigger hands are (too) often outdrawn.

So I wonder how you play at these tables, especially which hands you call with if you anticipate the pot going 4-handed.

Which hands are most profitable for you? Do you play hands like KJ or QT in late position with only one caller before you? Do you play smaller pocket pairs (like 66 or 55)? Do you raise in late position (with i.e. AKo or AQo or JJ) if you know you'll still have 3 callers?

Would be very happy with any help on this.
I am sorry ,may I know what is mean by

At tighter tables, where most of the hands goes 2- or 3-way

i don't understand the above sentence
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stada
Old 04-21-2005, 11:05 AM #3 (permalink)  

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stada
Sorry for my bad english. I'm swedish...

Anyway. What I mean is pots with 2 or 3 people seeing the flop. Hope that makes it more clear.
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Rondavu
Old 04-21-2005, 03:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
I find that I don't play well at all at tables where most of the pots go 4-handed, with one or two callers and the blinds entering the pot. Pocket pairs and suited connectors seem to drag home too small pots to be profitable, and my bigger hands are (too) often outdrawn.
Well let's look at the facts. When you have big hands, people are drawing out on you. That can only mean one thing. Most of the time they're paying you off on busted draws. It's a mathmatical certainty.

As for your suited connectors dragging small pots, you shouldn't be chasing without pot odds. If your odds are correct, and you win the pot then you have nothing to complain about.

Finally, small pocket pairs dragging small pots is just not believable unless your winning with 44 unimproved. Of course that's a small pot. Nobody can beat a pair of 4's! Pocket pairs that hit a set almost always drag good pots, because these hands free top pair for someone else to hold while being virtually unreadable. They also create deceptive full houses when the board pairs. I'd say hitting a set with a pocket pair is one of the most profitable situations in all of hold em.

Focus on the positive. If your still not doing well then post hand histories in the hand history forum for people to analyze. I'm sure holes will be discovered if your not profitable.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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stada
Old 04-21-2005, 04:05 PM #5 (permalink)  

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stada
What I mean about the suited connectors and the pocket pairs is that without enough callers, the it's hard to win enough money the times I hit the flop to compensate for the times I don't. (Of course the pots I win, usually will be quite big - though not as big as on the looser tables.)

Probably my problem also is that I find it hard to know how to play the big hands on the flop. I know I can bet top pair with a decent kicker with confidence heads up or 3-way, but with 4 people in the pot i don't feel I can be so confident. Also, I tend to lose more money the times I'm up against a two-pair, a set or a made hand, than I make the times I win with something like TPTK.

Maybe I'm thinking a bit strange. I hope someone can straighten it out for me.
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Rondavu
Old 04-21-2005, 05:39 PM #6 (permalink)  
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A common problem for newer players is they refuse to lay down second best hand when challenged heavy from a tight player on later streets. I'm willing to bet your cold calling a lot of raises on 4th and 5th streets. Is that an accurate assumption?

It sounds like your instincts are undeveloped when it comes time to lay down the loser. You have to gain a feel for what a raise from a certain person at the table indicates. When a tight player raises into you when you have top pair on a later street, then it's time to reconsider whether to continue based on your outs. All you have at that point is a pair. Tight players only raise two pair or better on 4th and 5th streets. It's very valuable to know who these people are when your sitting at a table with them.

What do you do when a lead shift occurs? What I mean is your on the button, catch top pair and the flop is checked to you. You bet, two people call, and on the turn instead of checking to you again the guy just before you bets out this time effectively wrestling control of the hand from you? What does that mean? People rarely sieze control in later streets on a draw. A lead shift is sometimes the same as if you bet and he raised you. Do you ignore that sign of power and call with top pair, or do you seriously consider what you should be doing based on the board and that players table image? Are you paying more attention to the board and the other player than your own hand? You should be. Do you have the guts to fold top pair with a fresh show of power on the turn or river? You'll save a lot of money by learning to do that.

Limit Hold-Em is about saving money more than making it. You make it by saving it when your beat. Master the art of detecting a better hand that you won't pay off, and you will become profitable.

Your first step should be to respect any raise on 4th or 5th street unless given a strong reason not to. By respect I mean fold. Stop hanging around and losing. Don't impulsively desire showdowns to see what was suspected in the first place... you were beat.

I can only hope some of this applies and/or helps you.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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honsheung
Old 04-22-2005, 12:22 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Do you have the guts to fold top pair with a fresh show of power on the turn or river? You'll save a lot of money by learning to do that.


This is quite difficult if only three people are in the flop . Top pair usually can win.
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stada
Old 04-22-2005, 09:05 AM #8 (permalink)  

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stada
Thank you very much for the help. I think I begin to understand where all my money goes...

As you say, Rondavu, my biggest problem is probably my postflop play. I try to knock people out and get the hand HU when I flop top pair, decent kicker, and somewhy refuse to believe my opponent when he shows power on the later streets. (This situation is quite different from being in a hand that was HU from the beginning, I think, cause then raises on the turn or river in those hands more often indicate some kind of slow play on the flop, or sometimes, a bluff.)

I think the most important thing for me to learn is, like you say, to know when I am beat, and try to save money that way.

So my problem is that I regularly am caught with second best hands, which makes me think I maybe entering the pot with the wrong hands, or at least play them the wrong way preflop (out of position, calling instead of raising, raising instead of calling...).

This brings me back to my initial question. When I anticipate 4 people seeing the flop, which hands do you think I should play, and which hands are good to avoid. I have a feeling that hands like AJ, KJ, QJ, QTs, KTs and maybe ATs too often brings me into a second best hand-situation. But again, it's may be only my postflop play that makes them unprofitable.

I realize now this thread maybe would fit better in the beginners forum, but I hope you can stand my ignorance anyway.
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Rondavu
Old 04-22-2005, 06:04 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Rondavu
Hands like AJ, KJ, QJ, QTs, KTs are notorious second best hands. They need to be played well postflop to have a positive expectation. This is how I play them, though I admit it is my own preference and not necessarily right for everyone...

I limp them at most times in any position. If there is 0-1 limper before me in mid or late position, I raise it. If I limp it in early position, and someone else raises, I will cold call it looking to flop a monster hand or draw. Even this is marginally loose. A lot of the best players in here would never dream of cold calling the raise. You probably shouldn't either until you become a good postflop player. I will cold call if I don't know the player raising to be tight. On the flop, I will assume I am dominated if I catch top pair, and probably fold against a raise depending on my read. The reason I call a raise preflop is because people raise with 99 TT JJ QQ KK. I can crack all of these with my ace if I detect weakness postflop.

Say I have AJ in mid position and I limp. The BB raises and I call. The flop comes out 5 A 9. All things being equal, if BB bets I fold. It's not always that simple however. If BB is known to bet out after a raise no matter what he hits I'll raise him here for info. If he just calls and then checks to me on the turn I will also check to gain showdown cheaper with my vulnerable hand. It depends on who and how many your up against.

Say I have AJ in mid position and I limp. This time the button raises and I call. The flop comes out 5 A 9. Now I act before the button. I will bet out for information. If he has a hand that dominates me I want him to raise here. I will call one raise for one more stab at two pair or something on 4th street, and then check/fold if bet into on the more expensive street.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Rondavu
Old 04-22-2005, 06:29 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Rondavu
Quote:
Originally Posted by honsheung
Quote:
Originally Posted by rondavu
Do you have the guts to fold top pair with a fresh show of power on the turn or river? You'll save a lot of money by learning to do that.

This is quite difficult if only three people are in the flop . Top pair usually can win.
In my experience, people don't raise unmade hands on 4th and 5th street. Even if you have top pair, it's usually bad against a late raise or power shift. Checking down for a showdown is the wrong thing to do because your top pair is bad more than 50% of the time. Your pot odds are effectively blown. I agree there are times you can win with it, but sticking around for that slim chance is the wrong move and usually not worth it. people raising on late streets have two pair, trips, a straight or a flush. Some very loose players raise draws on 4th street. If you know who they are then maybe you stick around, but it's rare.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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