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Chicago_Kid
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03-08-2005, 06:27 AM
Post subject: Hand Selection Learnings
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
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After about 11k hands at 2/4, I'm seeing some opportunities for improvement in the play of certain hands. While I'm sure I have leaks post flop, this post is to evaluate hand selection. Based on my PT stats, I have noted trouble with the following hands in EP/MP: ATo-A8o, ATs-A5s, KQo, 77-99.
I realize this sample size is not large, but I want to establish some guidelines to plug some leaks--or at least better handle certain hands. Please provide critiques on these for a full ring, assuming no strong reads:
•Fold 99-22 preflop when raised in front of me with at least one other caller. Otherwise, limp from EP.
•Do not play Ax up and including T, in EP.
•Do not play Axs up and including T in EP, against a raise.
•No KQ UTG, limp KQo from EP, and raise in MP and later. Against preraise by Rock/Tag, do not coldcall with this hand with players remaining.
•Raise in ATs and up in MP, limp all other Axs in MP and later. If reraised, slow way down on flop if I whiff.
•Do not play anything lower than 99 in EP.
•Do not play anything lower than 77 in MP.
Thanks in advance for the feedback.
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Fnord
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You shouldn't be cold-calling anything unpaired and unsuited. I regularly cold-call 99, 88 sometimes 77 behind other cold-callers. I'll go down to any pocket pair if the party is big enough. For what it's worth, I've played about 9k hands on Empire this month and cold-called 13 times for a net of $13.50.
I also limp 66+, KQ, ATs UTG. Sometimes I even raise them.
22-55 are an easy limp UTG at a good table. At worst it's a very small mistake.
In a really good game, I'm limping A2s from UTG. They make good hands to over-limp or pick on the blinds or a single limper.
ATo is an interesting hand. I've been open raising it from MP. Also will raise it behind 1 or maybe 2 loose limpers (depending on how loose the blinds are), otherwise I over-limp it. Muck it if a tight player that doesn't like to raise unpaired hands limps.
A9o is maginal trash. I only play it for a raise if I can pick on the blinds or a limper. I'll steal with A8-A5 pretty much only from the button.
Overall, you want to play marginal hands vs bad players. Think just as much about the other players and table texture as you do about position and your hand.
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AidanN20
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 106
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When your faced with a A10s, KQ etc from EP, do you see a problem with mucking it all the time?
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Dont F' with me, I can grind it out like a bot
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AidanN20
When your faced with a A10s, KQ etc from EP, do you see a problem with mucking it all the time?
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Think of it this way. Every orbit is costing you money. The better you play your blinds the less it costs, but that's beside the point. Between your blinds it's your job to find as much value as possible. Hence, you shouldn't be folding +EV hands pre-flop if you expect to beat the game for anywhere near the max. The more value you find, the less of a problem you'll have with downswings.
Finally, the better players at the 3/6 level and above run PokerTracker + Playerview. If you play too tight and predictable they will have no trouble putting you on a hand.
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AidanN20
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 106
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But then when your holding A10s
flop comes Q,10, rag with the rag giving you the runnerrunner flush draw.
And now youve got 4 people in the pot, typical $1/$2 game...everyones halfass LAggy or fish, who knows cause your 4 tabling and have no reads on anyone.
Do you fire out a flop bet? And say 2 of 3 call..., another rag. Do you fire a turn bet as well?....both call if so, then river comes another rag. Now do you fire another one again? Then your left wondering which fish might be holding Q4 the whole time and you were just filling his pockets?
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Dont F' with me, I can grind it out like a bot
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Fnord
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The loose pre-flop calls give you so much overlay you can bet your middle pair for value. Sometimes it's just you and the blinds on the river allowing you to check behind, although you frequently should bet out anyway.
Sure you can play 12% VP$IP 5% PFR poker against these clowns and show a profit. I have a PT database full of these guys. I see 'em at every table and I'm certain they're making money. But I doubt they're beating the game for the max, aquiring the skills to play bigger and having as much fun.
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AidanN20
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3-of-a-Kind
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So where do you put K10, QJ, Q10 on your list on a typical table?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AidanN20
So where do you put K10, QJ, Q10 on your list on a typical table?
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QJ open raise from Button, CO, CO+1. Sometimes CO+2 if I'm feeling frisky.
KT, QT, JT are an open raise from the Button or CO, or raise behind one loose/bad limper (you must NOT raise a tight limper with these hands.) I'll also sometimes over-limp them from the button. You need to be careful because if everyone played good poker you'd be getting the worst of it in a multi-pot.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
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The key is your which oppenent is limping. Raising a hand that will be dominated by a tight open limp is not g00t.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AidanN20
When your faced with a A10s, KQ etc from EP, do you see a problem with mucking it all the time?
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Hence, you shouldn't be folding +EV hands pre-flop if you expect to beat the game for anywhere near the max. The more value you find, the less of a problem you'll have with downswings. |
Ok...so I might not be THAT far off, based on how I currently play. However, hands like ATo, Axs, 77 and 99 are big losers for me right now from EP. I've also noticed that I probably take QJs and Axs too far post-flop out of LP. Perhaps this is due sample size, perhaps lack of post flop discipline.
On the cold calls tips: I checked my cold calls, and I have 26 in 11k hands, all of these were either two bigs, suited, or pairs, and none in MP/EP, so I suppose this isn't horrible.
So, I will seek to utilize PV more in these questionable situations, as I sometimes find myself betting 3 all streets into TAP'ers and getting outkicked with A-mid kick.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Ok...so I might not be THAT far off, based on how I currently play. However, hands like ATo, Axs, 77 and 99 are big losers for me right now from EP. I've also noticed that I probably take QJs and Axs too far post-flop out of LP. Perhaps this is due sample size, perhaps lack of post flop discipline.
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77 and 99 should be profitable. Probably sample size as all pocket pairs have a huge amount of variance as they make most of their money when they hit, get action and hold up.
I already said AT from MP and on. Also with weaker suited Aces it's a table dependent thing and because you count on the flush so much they also can swing quite a bit.
I tend to look at Axs and 77-99 as groups to help get a bigger picture as I don't expect a lot of difference between them.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
So, I will seek to utilize PV more in these questionable situations, as I sometimes find myself betting 3 all streets into TAP'ers and getting outkicked with A-mid kick.
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When the pot is pretty big I don't worry about domination. Top pair is top pair and I play it hard until given really good reason to think it's no good. I think most aware players over-estimate the kicker problems weak Aces have when they hit. AJ isn't a better hand than A2 so much because of the kicker, but because a pair of Jacks is often worth taking to showdown and an pair of deuces rarely is.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Thanks for the clarification, Fnord.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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