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AKQJ
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03-01-2009, 02:11 PM
Post subject: hand quizzes from SSH
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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I don't understand some things about Hand 19 from Flop Play Hand Quizzes from the book Small Stakes Holdem(page 283).
You have As Kd on the button. 3 players limp and you raise. Both blinds and all the limpers call (12 small bets).
The flop is Ks 9s 6c You have top pair+backdoor nut FD
Everyone checks to you and you bet. The SB c-raises and 3 people cold-call(21 small bets).
The authors say that hero should reraise because he probably has the best hand and this hand is strong enough to win significantly more than its share(20% against 4 opponents).
I think you overplay your hand if you reraise. Usually a check-raise in a multi-way pot is something very strong. SB can c/raise with a FD but I don't think he will c/raise with K no kicker or with medium pair in this multi-way pot.
The other thing I don't understand is that if I know that SB will bet any turn I should just call and raise the turn. I usually make this play in a heads-up pot, not in a multi-way pot.
"Notice that something a little unexpected happened. The SB c/r, probably hoping that your other opponents would fold. Instead, 3 out of 4 called. Normally, you could count on the flop c-raiser to bet the turn. Here you cannot; the unwanted callers might scare him into checking. If you knew that the SB would bet the turn if you just called, then you would prefer waiting until then to raise. But do not wait unless you are confident your opponent will bet."
In the online games I play I am 99% sure that SB will bet the turn after his c-raise in a multi-way pot on the flop. Maybe only with a FD he will check. But I don't play call flop/raise turn in a multi-way pot. Is it more profitable to do this play than raise the flop if I know that SB will bet any turn card?
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BennyLaRue
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03-01-2009, 03:51 PM
Post subject: Re: hand quizzes from SSH
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#2 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
Usually a check-raise in a multi-way pot is something very strong.
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Actually, it's often quite the opposite against multiple opps. The c/r out of position is a means of protecting a weak holding. Anticipating the late position player's likely continuation bet, it's a great play as the check raise worsens the odds for callers and can make it incorrect for the original limpers to chase a draw.
A check-raise in a heads up pot is likely to be a stronger holding than a check-raise with multiple opps.
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AKQJ
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03-01-2009, 04:11 PM
Post subject: Re: hand quizzes from SSH
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#3 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Actually, it's often quite the opposite against multiple opps.
A check-raise in a heads up pot is likely to be a stronger holding than a check-raise with multiple opps.
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In the games I played very few players check-raise with weak holdings in a multi-way pot. They usually donk with their weaker hands or check-call, but not check-raise.
In a heads-up pot I check-raise many weak hands because the probabilty that my opponent has a strong hand is smaller(it's only me and him) and most of the time he just c-bets.
But I'm speaking about the players I have played with. Maybe in the game you are playing the players play differently. Or in the live games that the authors of the book played maybe that check-raise didn't necessarily mean a strong hand.
Ok, let's say that SB is a player who is capable to check-raise with weaker hands. If I have a read that he always bets the turn, it's a better play to call flop/raise turn? I only play call flop/raise turn if the pot is heads-up. Is this a mistake?
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Against 1-2 opponents, I'll consider check-raising with marginal hands like middle pair or bottom pair when I believe villain(s) have missed overs or something weak. If I get re-raised from a tight player, it might be time to let it go while the bets are still small.
I can understand why the book states why you should re-raise, but everything is situational. From what I've seen, check-raising is "sometimes" pointless in extremely loose games because everyone behind calls very often. Sure, they're going up against the odds by doing so but the check-raise accomplished absolutely nothing in this case. You're now in an even bigger pot going into the turn and you're out of position. Not exactly the kind of spot I want to be in unless I'm holding the nuts or at the least a monster draw.
This is the thing I don't understand, and I see it at EVERY table from $1/2 FL on down. You have a 5-way pot on the flop and everyone checks to the PF raiser in last position. He bets, the SB check-raises, and everyone else behind calls. If you're going to call 2 bets, why not just bet yourself?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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BennyLaRue
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03-01-2009, 08:18 PM
Post subject: Re: hand quizzes from SSH
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#5 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
In the games I played very few players check-raise with weak holdings in a multi-way pot.
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Great, their inability to defend the pot gives you better odds to chase your own draws even if you are beat.
But in the context of that particular hand in SSH, my above explanation is what the authors are referring to. It's an important difference between your impression and the explanation in the book and is probably why you weren't understanding it. Is that advice correct in ALL multiway situations? Of course not. But, if anything, the best thing to take away from the book is the sort of thought process you should be going through during a hand and acting in a way that will maximize your expectation. In other words, you learn how to improvise. So, if you think that in your games, donking means A and c/r means B, by all means act on that.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles™
Against 1-2 opponents, I'll consider check-raising with marginal hands like middle pair or bottom pair when I believe villain(s) have missed overs or something weak.
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Right, but that's a comparitively strong hand, isn't it? Heads up, middle pair is a much stronger hand than middle pair is against multiple opps.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles
From what I've seen, check-raising is "sometimes" pointless in extremely loose games because everyone behind calls very often. Sure, they're going up against the odds by doing so but the check-raise accomplished absolutely nothing in this case. You're now in an even bigger pot going into the turn and you're out of position.
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It sometimes is pointless, you're right. What a dream table you're at, then. Adjust your starting hands accordingly (drawing hands go up in value, offsuit broadways go down) and rake in huge pots.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles
If you're going to call 2 bets, why not just bet yourself?
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Because they aren't good and that's good for you. You're not complaining about that, are you?
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles
If you're going to call 2 bets, why not just bet yourself?
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Because they aren't good and that's good for you. You're not complaining about that, are you? |
Not at all, but it blows my mind how so many people just don't get it. More monies for us. 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles™
I can understand why the book states why you should re-raise, but everything is situational. From what I've seen, check-raising is "sometimes" pointless in extremely loose games because everyone behind calls very often. Sure, they're going up against the odds by doing so but the check-raise accomplished absolutely nothing in this case. You're now in an even bigger pot going into the turn and you're out of position. Not exactly the kind of spot I want to be in unless I'm holding the nuts or at the least a monster draw.
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It makes the pot bigger when you have more than your share of equity. It still sucks you're OOP but that at least is something.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles™
This is the thing I don't understand, and I see it at EVERY table from $1/2 FL on down. You have a 5-way pot on the flop and everyone checks to the PF raiser in last position. He bets, the SB check-raises, and everyone else behind calls. If you're going to call 2 bets, why not just bet yourself?
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Because that would require some thinking that goes beyond "OMG I have a bd straight AND bottom pair".
The better question is why they call two cold with little or no chance of winning. The answer is because they don't understand the game and are just 'gambling'
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Because that would require some thinking
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Going from 25c/50c to $1/2, it amazes me how fish make the exact same mistakes over and over again at any level. The only difference is there's not as many at each table. This only makes it easier to spot them 'cuz they stand out like a white guy at a Snoop Dogg concert. I'm still just a newb, but please tell me it's like this at $2/4 and $3/6. 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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asdpikas
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,056
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airles™
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Because that would require some thinking
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Going from 25c/50c to $1/2, it amazes me how fish make the exact same mistakes over and over again at any level. The only difference is there's not as many at each table. This only makes it easier to spot them 'cuz they stand out like a white guy at a Snoop Dogg concert. I'm still just a newb, but please tell me it's like this at $2/4 and $3/6. |
It is
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Trons
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 86
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I like SSHE reasoning for raising the flop. I know that the c/r may mean he hit his set, but I have outs against that (not many but they're there. The raise also gives the c/rer a chance to raise again which forces everybody else to make another mistake. It also defines our hand and if the FD hits on the turn (giving us the nut fd) then hopefully the SB who just hit his FD will check to us again giving us a chance at a free card.
One of the things I learned about playing SSHE is that if you can force people to make mistakes, you make money everytime they do. We shouldn't be complaining about people calling 2cold on the flop if it's a mistake, we should be happy that they're willing to make that mistake. It's money to you everytime they do (even if they sometimes out draw you).
In the hand described by OP, we're probably in it till the end unless something really freaky happens because of pot size. In those circumstances, I'm also raising because I really want the cheaper SD's (either I can check the turn (because I'm in position) or I can bet the turn, hope I don't get c/r and check the river...either way, Since I'm pretty much pot committed with a hand with SD value, I'm staying and raising the c/r on the flop does 2 things:
A) IF we are best here, we're getting value
B) IF we're beat here, it gives us an oppertunity to see a cheaper SD
Either of these circumstances are good for us.
I'm sure there are more reasons to raise the c/r on the flop, I just can't think of them right now...
BTW, my flop play isn't going to be based on reads...on the flop when the bets are cheap, I tend to play much more aggressively and slow down on the turn and river if I think i'm beat. In this case, because of pot size and my hand, I'm in it till the end anyway so I may as well play the flop aggressively while it's still cheap.
Trons
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Trons is right!
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Jsttrons
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trons
BTW, my flop play isn't going to be based on reads...on the flop when the bets are cheap, I tend to play much more aggressively and slow down on the turn and river if I think i'm beat. In this case, because of pot size and my hand, I'm in it till the end anyway so I may as well play the flop aggressively while it's still cheap.
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Yes, but the authors say in the book that if I know that SB will bet again on the turn I should wait until the turn to raise. They say that reraise on the flop is a better play because it's not sure that SB will bet again the turn, not because it's cheaper on the flop.
No one answered my other question. Let's suppose that I have a read that SB will bet any turn card. Is a better play call flop/raise turn than reraise on the flop(the authors say yes) and why? I'm thinking that the players who have a FD or a str8 draw(78) or a gutshot, or a middle pair will see the turn card cheaper if we just call on the flop waiting to raise the turn. They will still have the correct odds to call after our reraise but we make them pay more to draw if we reraise the flop than if we play call flop/raise turn. Maybe on the flop we have the best hand but the turn completed another player's draw. So instead of reraising on the flop with the best hand we are raising the turn with second best hand.
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
Yes, but the authors say in the book that if I know that SB will bet again on the turn I should wait until the turn to raise. They say that reraise on the flop is a better play because it's not sure that SB will bet again the turn, not because it's cheaper on the flop.
No one answered my other question. Let's suppose that I have a read that SB will bet any turn card. Is a better play call flop/raise turn than reraise on the flop(the authors say yes) and why? I'm thinking that the players who have a FD or a str8 draw(78) or a gutshot, or a middle pair will see the turn card cheaper if we just call on the flop waiting to raise the turn. They will still have the correct odds to call after our reraise but we make them pay more to draw if we reraise the flop than if we play call flop/raise turn. Maybe on the flop we have the best hand but the turn completed another player's draw. So instead of reraising on the flop with the best hand we are raising the turn with second best hand.
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If you 3 bet the flop it is most likely that it will be checked to you on the turn and you will get at most 1 BB from each opponent. If you are sure SB will lead the Turn you can trap them all for 2 BB.
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Trons
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 86
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What Sinky said, plus:
If we know that SB is going to lead a brick turn, we can wait for the turn to raise and get more value from our hand, however, and I haven't looked this up in SSHE yet (But I may), this board is fairly dangerious and I'm wanting to get my chips in while I believe I'm ahead...
IF we have a read that suggests that SB is playing something like KQ and is going to lead the turn, then yeah, feel free to wait. Where the problem with waiting, imo, comes in, on a board like this is:
Turn is a brick, SB bets and those same 3 people call one bet in this fairly large pot, you raise and SB just calls your raise...those same 3 people are going to call one more because now the pot is even larger...what do we do if the FD hits and somebody all of a sudden comes alive? We're forced to call but we hate it...
IF we have a read that SB is going to do this, I think our best bet is to wait to the river and hope he donks again with a brick on the river, then fire away when our raise will force everybody to call yet another bet on the river in a huge pot, only now they are calling with middle pair and a busted FD but the pot is too large to get away from.
I'll have to look up the specific example in SSHE and see if I'm missing something there.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Trons is right!
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Jsttrons
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asdpikas
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,056
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the trouble in this hand is that there is no way to protect it.
by just calling, sb will fire turn most of the time and callers are faced with 1bet which they will call many times
at least, by 3betting the flop we get max value from draws and weak hands.
turn action will be defined by many factors including the turn card which may hurt us in many ways (3rd flush card, board pairs) either slowing US, or slowing THEM.
Also, maybe SB caps to our 3bet, facing callers with 2more cold, and maybe getting 1 or 2 folds, which would be great for us (buying outs if behind, improving our equity)
Anyways, i think what SSH refers to here is that we have a pretty strong hand with a lot of equity and we should push that equity (even tho we aren't sure that we are best 100%) while we still can. Also, the pot is quite big, and worth fighting for strongly. Waiting won't achieve much good for us here.
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