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Poker Forum |
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| Chopper |
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this forum HAS the people in it now. it has at least 10-12 regular visitors. there isnt much of an excuse to have such little discussion going. i want threads! i want us to learn! we dont all have the fundamentals down. and, we shouldnt be embarrassed about asking questions. i will try my best to post a hand every day here. some will likely be standard, but i want to post some big hands, small hands, tricky hands, stupid hands. i want to spice some discussion...and you never know where discussion will take place. so, day one... biggest hand of the month so far. (granted, i dont have 1500 in yet) SB was a loose passive fish that showed tendencies to get a little stupid and severely overplay his bluffs. he calls down light, but occasionally gets a hair up his ass and tries like hell to blow you off your hand. BB, i know nothing about. PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is Button with A  , K2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls Flop: (6 SB) 3 , K , 9 (3 players)SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls Turn: (6 BB) 10  (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls River: (9 BB) 7 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero ?? river line?? b/f? b/c? b/3b? dont say c/c, because thats for pussies. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece! 
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | ||||
| ziptieboy |
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I'll bite Chopper. I'm gonna go with b/c. After the river checks, I think our hand is good still. SB's light overplay of bluffs indicates that he would try to bluff at the river. As for BB, either he is a donk and will c/c down or he doesn't have a hand. Now you can chop me down. Let's see what the correct thinking is. |
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| Chopper |
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i rarely KNOW the correct thinking. i just happen to be the more active poster in here...lol. i post hands so the correct thinking gets thought out.....and taught to me. my growth curve is a slow one. but, it is what it is. we'll see what some others think, and i'll post results. obviously, the hand isnt over. i think we would expect to see a c/r out of one of these idiots before the river is played out. flush draw HAS to be in there, imo. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| BennyLaRue |
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The 7d completes straights and a flush. Checking is not for pussies here against multiple opps. Let's take the SB out. The BB's b/c on the flop indicates he probably caught a piece and is calling down a weak holding. Sure, bet the river then, but not with the SB tagging along. |
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| Lance |
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SB has the flush........he called 2bets on the flop......usual fish move on a draw. Quote:
I would really check in this case. Anyway streight or 2 pairs can beat you as well. |
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| Ragnar4 |
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Can't check call no matter how much it pussifies you because you're last to act. Seriously who bets into a newly made flush/straights. B/F is the trickiest line i'd use here, but I *HATE* to use B/F against multiple opponents. I only like to use it against one opponent. But I also need to filter this through the fundamental theorem. Put yourself in your opponents shoes. What hands call behind that are worse? I honestly don't think any worse hands call, ever. So you should just check. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| Chopper |
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i think worse calls at this table.....given our read. my bad on the c/c part...lol. but, if you are last to act, you guys are ALL checking behind because you are that sure, or afraid, that a draw completed? is that reason enough to check behind? personally, i dont think it is reason enough. there is NO evidence to suggest they have us beat. and, how do we know they actually completed the right draw? sure, they were chasing, but how do we know it came in? if someone leads, i only call. but, that isnt the point of this hand, obv. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| KoRnholio |
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| 5 handed.. hmm.. I think I b-f. They will call with all sorts of one pair hands. But if one of them raises we are probably in terrible shape unless the guy is a spewtard. | |||
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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| BennyLaRue |
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I'll play a straight read heads up and have it trump what the odds say to do...there's a real art heads up. But I like to play much more scientifically against multiple opps. |
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| DrivingDog |
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| Checking behind when a draw comes in is just sooo weak imo. SB seems tarded enough to call two cold on the flop with lots of junk. BB could have 9x, Kx, QQ, JJ, QT, JT as well as the FD. If SB c/rs the river I call and hope he's making another stupid bluff. If BB c/rs I consider folding but without a read I probably don't. | |||
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| Chopper |
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Quote:
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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I'm b/f'ing but I think it's thin but I haz TPTK in limit I know ppl can call with worse. This isn't so much about their c/r'ing range (seeing how it obv has us slaughtered) it's more about will 1 or 2 opponents look us up with worse than AK, and we know they will. |
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| Chopper |
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enough have given comments.....now what? PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is Button with A , K2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls Flop: (6 SB) 3 , K, 9 (3 players)SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls Turn: (6 BB) 10 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls River: (9 BB) 7 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB calls, Hero ?? anyone care to take a shot at what SB and BB have? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Ragnar4 |
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what do they have? They have you slaughtered. Fold. ldo. And next time, listen to me when you can't decide between b/f and checking out. No actually, uhh. What do they have? SB has a flush. BB has an ugly king. Perhaps a passively played 2 pair. BB may have been raising with a bad flush or gutshot straight trying to get a free card on the turn... BB may have a really low flush too. His range is stupid big. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| DrivingDog |
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| SB could have anything. we know that. BB probably also knows that. There's no way I'm folding here getting 14:1 | |||
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| BennyLaRue |
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| Can't fold now. Go, go, go. | |||
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| Chopper |
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Quote:
when i decided to b/c river, it was because i knew weaker TP cant get off his hand. neither can a dumbass dragging any pair to showdown at this point. sure, the c/r scared me, but i knew i was willing to pay 2 to see my sphincter when i fired. i just couldnt check behind on that 3rd diamond alone. limit tip, especially 6max (not that i'm in position to give any): DONT FEAR 3 CARD BOARDS ALL THAT MUCH. HOWEVER, FEAR THE SHIT OUT OF A 4 CARD BOARD. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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| You just gave reasons to bet chopper, not reasons to bet/call. | |||
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| BennyLaRue |
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Quote:
If you check, say you win even 75% of the time. I don't think it's quite that high, but let's just say it is. Your expected return is 6.75 BB (9 BB * 0.75). If you bet, say you still win 75% of the time, chopped up this way: 50% of the time you bet and win one extra bet because you get a caller. 25% of the time, you bet and get two folds. However, 25% of the time, you lose and it costs you two extra bets. Your expected return is now: 0.25 (9) + 0.5 (10) + .25 (-2) = 2.25 + 5 - 0.5 = 6.75 BB Obviously, I didn't include every scenario, but you get the idea. Even if you think your hand will win 75% of the time, betting and checking are about the same. The problem is that I don't think you're winning 75% of the time against two opps. I'd say you're 50% to win at best in these situations, at which point betting results in a lower expectation. Check: 0.5 (9) = 4.5 BB Bet: 0.25 (9) + 0.25 (10) + 0.5 (-2) = 3.75 BB Your expected value is higher if you check. As played, I could maybe find a fold if BB popped it up on the river after the SB c/r. But not getting 14 to 1. With those odds, I'm calling with TPTK every time. |
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| Chopper |
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i'm not sure what you are asking me to defend. i think its obvious that if we bet, we have to be prepared to call in such a large pot. and, i said i was "willing to call" when i bet in the post above yours. i'd be happy to clarify, but i dont know what you are asking. benny, thanks for the math. i like to see it when its worked out in front of me because i'm still clueless when it comes to calculating it....i've never taken the time to practice it.  i dont call two bets back to me on that river, either. but, i thought it was worth a bet. i'm mostly glad to see how close it is. if it's close, arent we better erring on the side of aggression??? after all, we may get two callers. or, in the SB c/r scenario, we may luck out and get 4 extra BBs out of it. and, at these stakes, i dont think that last scenario is that rare. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Ragnar4 |
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Quote:
But multiway, I tend to like the argument: Fear not the re-raise, but be terrified of the guy who smoothcalls. I don't know if I answered your post in OP, so just so we're clear here. Given only the options you offered us. b/f > b/c > open fold > b/3b But like I said, I have a giant vagina and would have checked out on that river. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| DrivingDog |
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Quote:
I agree with Ragnar that SB calling two cold on the flop smells flushy drawy, but you also see weak players do this with any piece of the board. I think the times you lose 2BB to a flush or two pair are more than balanced out by the times you catch a bluff and win 2BB plus the times you get value from TPTK. Makes it an easy b/c vs. a nutty SB imo. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| BennyLaRue |
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| Chopper |
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alright, we can put this one to bed. thanks for all the replies. if you want to keep hashing it out, thats fine. i just thought i'd put the results in here to show you the players you can find at 50/1 still... if i were to cast a vote over what i learned here it is that TPTK hands like AK need to be bet until told otherwise. bet the river, even when expecting a raise by the flush, and call the stupidly standard c/r. but, do this only with a read on a stupid player. (fyi, i dont think i b/c this in a fr game where players are prone to nutcamp more.) however, checking behind is the likely standard line here and really close in terms of expected value. if oop, we c/c this most likely to keep the river at one bet. i learned more, but i am getting wordy. on with the results... PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is Button with A , K2 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls Flop: (6 SB) 3 , K, 9 (3 players)SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls Turn: (6 BB) 10 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls River: (9 BB) 7 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB calls, Hero calls Total pot: $15 (15 BB) | Rake: $0.50 Results: Hero had A , K (one pair, Kings).SB had Q  , 2 (high card, King).BB had K , 4 (one pair, Kings).Outcome: Hero won $14.50 |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| DrivingDog |
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Quote:
Checking behind is not standard and it's not even close in terms of EV. Take 100 hands like this and if you bet/call the river every time you will make a profit from all the worse hands that look you up. With the proper read you can bet/fold against some players and that will make you a bigger overall net profit. If you wet your pants every time a scare card hits on the river you will lose a lot of profit. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| BennyLaRue |
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Quote:
Of course, this all changes if we have a read on both SB and BB. Can we agree that the worst line is b/f though? |
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| Chopper |
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Dog, here is the math i used to base that "checking is likely standard." Quote:
i feel villains will call one little river bet rather lightly more often than i will get c/r'd by a flush. i feel there is a small possibility of a c/r that is a stupid bluff. i feel it is least likely that we will see a caller that has us beat w/ 2pr or some other crap. in terms of most common villain actions: call my single bet > c/r > bluff > only call with the winning hand. i dont, however, know how to asses percentages to the frequency of the actions to do any accurate math with what i feel. anyone that can help with that? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| DrivingDog |
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Well maybe 'standard' isn't the right word... To me, it's a question of reads and knowing when to b/c and when to b/f. More than 50% of the time against typical opponents you are ahead and will get called by Kx, QT, JT, etc. in at least one spot. That's profit. The rest of the time you'll either get folds or you'll get a c/r. The real question is what to do when you do get a c/r. Against a lot of ABC opponents it's an easy fold because there's no way they have a worse hand that TPTK. But if villian is a spewtard it's changes things. Here, the only person to worry about is BB. SB is a tard so a raise from him is actually something to look forward to. Against two unknowns, I probably b/f this river, and especially if the c/r comes from the player next to act after me. So I'm usually only risking one to win one. |
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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| Chopper |
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k. but, i think, again, we are at a bit of an impasse with our "unknown player" generalizations...due to level of play. you assume an unknown is decent, well not retarded, while making these decisions. i assume he's retarded until proven otherwise because i see SO much of this stupid crap on a regular basis down here. i think that's why this is a clear b/c from me, even with two players. granted, if both were unknown (like you already said) its also a b/f for me, too. but, with a read on one and the assumption that the other is 50/50 retarded, i come up with "standard" as b/c here. anyway, thanks for all the debate here. as for villains' hands....WTF??? even more retarded than i could imagine. they never cease to amaze me. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Latest Poker News | |
| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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