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Hand against a maniac - standard?

  
 
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chardrian
Old 05-12-2006, 09:50 PM     Post subject: Hand against a maniac - standard? #1 (permalink)  
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Villain was 67/30 over only 20 hands, but his main move was a checkraise on the flop (with or without a hand).

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, A.
UTG calls, Hero raises, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3, 3, 9 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-12-2006, 10:11 PM #2 (permalink)  
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wow you 3 bet Ace high?

typicaly aganst a huge maniac that will 3 bet and cap almost anything i like calling down fighting fire with water...

i would call down after is raise on the flop personaly, but that might be wrong...
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chardrian
Old 05-12-2006, 10:58 PM #3 (permalink)  
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the majority of the time his flop raise means nothing. I am fine 3 betting him on the flop because I am usually ahead.

When he capped the flop, I was unsure - he hadn't done that before (in the limited time I was there).

I almost checkraised the turn but figured that would be spewage if he did have the 3 or the 9 (or any pair for that matter).
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-12-2006, 11:48 PM #4 (permalink)  
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What extra value do you have 3 betting an Ace high? You have 0 fold equity against this player, you might be ahead but you are putting a lot of cash in the pot when you have an extremely marginal hand...

You might have some value and be ahead but with the big streets coming and/or you get capped you have to be figuring you need to improve most the time if he caps or plays back on the turn if you miss...

To me the 3 bet here is thin to me again an overly Argo player... at best I have to figure it's a 60/40 situation but that's not based on his cap... I would guess it's 50/50 even when he raises once, if he caps you know for a fact it's a 50/50 that you are ahead or behind...

you gain no information from the turn play on the turn even if you were ahead you are in a 55/45 situation at best against his range (run it though Poker Stove)...

Sure you can 3bet I’m not disputing that, my point here is you’re just going to increase your variance a lot by making that play...

I was making a point that fighting fire with fire is fine sometimes but you will increase variance by doing fighting fire with water with an EXTRAMLY marginal holding like this one is my line...
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thenonsequitur
Old 05-13-2006, 03:06 AM     Post subject: Re: Hand against a maniac - standard? #5 (permalink)  
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So pokerfanatic, you're saying:

1) If hero is ahead it is by such a small amount that calling down is giving up very little value.

2) Can't even be very sure hero is ahead.

3) Whether ahead or not, raising increases hero's variance a lot.

Did I follow you right?
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euphoricism
Old 05-13-2006, 05:20 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Followed him better than I followed him
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-13-2006, 04:18 PM     Post subject: Re: Hand against a maniac - standard? #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
So pokerfanatic, you're saying:

1) If hero is ahead it is by such a small amount that calling down is giving up very little value.

2) Can't even be very sure hero is ahead.

3) Whether ahead or not, raising increases hero's variance a lot.

Did I follow you right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eupho
Followed him better than I followed him Very Happy
That's close enough to what i was saying...

It is one of those situations that it could go either way on calling down or 3betting... by 3 betting a super argo player you are basically playing double the stakes with the guy... he has practice raising and capping nothing and most the time you are coin flipping with him if you are ahead or behind because you wont know... i'm not much a fan of putting in 3 or 4 bets on a flop i'm flipping a coin for... I don't mind gambling but that is just not the spot i like to do it in...

so my approach when i'm not real positive i have the best hand is to take a passive one, if the flop was say J33 with the same suits of course i 3 bet it and of course i don't mind him capping me because i'm putting in another raise on the turn if he 3 bets i go to SD from there...

Basically my style of play picks and chooses spots where i want to fight this player with water or fire... in this spot i feel i would most likely fight with water...

because on this flop you are either coin flip (even if he has no pair it's only like 60/40 to a range of hands i'll post it once i get doe with my post)... so i COULD see a raise but how do you plan to act if you get capped, how do you plan to act if he calls? He has position on you in this hand the entire time so you have to act before him and you can not gain information on him till after you have bet and shown strength or checked and shown weakness est est...

my guess is that Chardrian in this hand either lost or probably chopped.. of course he's not going to know ths from the flop when he is trying to decide to 3 bet or not... but since he capped against an over argo that doesn't give us an extra information on his hand, he could cap nothing but a draw here, when the turn comes down and we c/c down well we basically went into the fight with water mode anyways, if we would have gone into that mode in the first place we would have saved 1bb IMO...

it's more about long term EV then anything here... we are only debating 1bb in this situation thus why i was saying it could go either way but be aware that fighting fire with fire is like playing 20/40 in a 10/20 game...

here are the pokerstave numbers:

Pre Flop:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 63.9102 % 62.56% 01.35% { AcJc }
Hand 2: 36.0898 % 34.74% 01.35% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J6o+, T6o+, 96o+, 86o+, 76o }


Flop:

Board: 3s 3h 9h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.8643 % 55.55% 02.31% { AcJc }
Hand 2: 42.1357 % 39.82% 02.31% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J6o+, T6o+, 96o+, 86o+, 76o }


Turn:

Board: 3s 3h 9h 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 54.4603 % 52.93% 01.53% { AcJc }
Hand 2: 45.5397 % 44.00% 01.53% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J6o+, T6o+, 96o+, 86o+, 76o
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chardrian
Old 05-13-2006, 06:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I guess I always thought in cash games where u have an equity edge you should raise.

Which is why I actually was somewhat expecting someone to argue that if I 3 bet the flop, I should raise that turn as well.

For those interested in results the villain had TJos.
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-14-2006, 04:30 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chardrian
I guess I always thought in cash games where u have an equity edge you should raise.

Which is why I actually was somewhat expecting someone to argue that if I 3 bet the flop, I should raise that turn as well.

For those interested in results the villain had TJos.
then 3bet the whole way since you got an edge...
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-14-2006, 04:55 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 Theoretically, you both are right. If you are ahead and he will continue to call then by all means raise, obviously.

But more often than not by raising you are only going to fold a worse hand, But then again you should also raise for your free card on the flop (or at least take it if he gave it to you). I'm not folding anywhere along the line so I'm usually just trying to take the cheapest route to showdown.


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