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hand 3 for review..

  
 
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Chopper
Old 06-28-2008, 01:02 AM     Post subject: hand 3 for review.. #1 (permalink)  
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Chopper
more to come in short future. thanks for the help, guys...

villain is TAG, but i want to know if i should 3bet turn? i tend to call and c/r rivers. this is safe here, but i think its a bad habit. is there ever a spot to do it? if so, is this it...letting him think his worse K is good or that he can bump me with a busted flush?

0.25/0.5 Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($11.10)
UTG+1 ($26.05)
CO ($25.80)
BTN ($2.85)
SB ($14.80)
BB ($7.25)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 6 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises, 2 folds, BTN calls, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (8.0 SB, 4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB folds, BB calls

Turn: (7.0 BB, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, BB raises, Hero calls

River: (11.0 BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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KoRnholio
Old 06-28-2008, 01:18 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Off the top of my head, I could really go either way here. If he's a semi-decent tag though he won't often be check-raising with hands like 8x or a flush draw. This looks very much like a weaker king, probably KT/K9.

From my experience, most guys like this with medium kings will only put in 2 more bets after they raise the turn. If we 3bet the turn they check-call the river unimproved. If we flat call they will bet-call the river. So in the scenario that they have a weaker king, the plays are pretty much equal.

In the case where he is semi-bluffing a flush (unlikely for this guy I think) he will probably fire a missed river as well if we flat call (3 bets made total) or check-fold the river unimproved if we 3bet the turn (3 bets total again). So far neither play is better IMO.

But the case where he is betting something like pocket 10's or on a pure bluff, he obviously thinks it is good and will fire the river again (3+ bets gained). If we 3bet the turn against either of those types of hands he may well fold (2 bets gained). Well played IMO.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Chopper
Old 06-28-2008, 02:27 AM #3 (permalink)  
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w/o doing all the math, it sounds like my play was only slightly more EV than a standard abc play? and, only because it pulls one more bet out of other holdings from a TAG that would otherwise call a bet? but, that edge, i guess, is micro small? therefore, this was just to show off to the TAG that i "think about these things...so dont get in a lot of hands with me."
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 06-28-2008, 07:58 AM #4 (permalink)  
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I would just call on flop, as you are not protecting efficiently against flushdraws, and it has the additional benefit that on turn it will mostly go bet/raise, and if villain has a K (mostly behind yours) he may 3bet which is really nice (you call, and raise again on river). Also, if he's flushing/semibluffing, you get him to bet/call instead of check/call.
I think that way many times you get more bets in the pot.
What do you guys think?
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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DrivingDog
Old 06-28-2008, 01:16 PM #5 (permalink)  
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You MUST raise the flop. Don't let SB hang around with middle or bottom pair, 76, 75, etc. and 4-5 outs.

I like the turn/river play. Though I think he almost always has Kx and not a FD, your line screams strength and it's very hard for him to 3bet you without having you beat.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 06-28-2008, 04:48 PM #6 (permalink)  
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you guys are the regulars that help the most. thank you for your opinions.

i will post results here soon...to all three hands.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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socal1111
Old 06-28-2008, 05:40 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
w/o doing all the math, it sounds like my play was only slightly more EV than a standard abc play? and, only because it pulls one more bet out of other holdings from a TAG that would otherwise call a bet? but, that edge, i guess, is micro small? therefore, this was just to show off to the TAG that i "think about these things...so dont get in a lot of hands with me."
I agree that you MUST raise flop, for the same reasons chopper gave. I usually like getting the action in on turn, but nothing wrong w/ your line here.

The bigger issue, IMO (which doesn't get talked about enough), is "showing off to the TAG..."

Showing off = Ego.
Ego = losing poker

Good hand otherwise.
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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Chopper
Old 06-28-2008, 05:51 PM #8 (permalink)  
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point taken. i need to recite that about 100X daily.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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KoRnholio
Old 06-28-2008, 06:12 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
point taken. i need to recite that about 100X daily.
I've actually made myself a little stick note for my monitor for LHE games. It was inspired by one of the +EV guy's comic's I read once. It reads:

- Pair poker
- Don't spew
- Don't give rocks action <-- (I am still playing crypto pretty regularly)

I don't know how much it's helped me, but it's nice to be able to glance at reminders like that when you start to play bad and/or lose money in a session.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Chopper
Old 06-28-2008, 06:27 PM #10 (permalink)  
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i have posted an incomplete "rules of engagement." i am compiling "tips" that i know/relearn. i think i am up to about 6.

they're in my op thread, if you care to look. "i go where the wind takes me."
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 06-29-2008, 06:20 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
You MUST raise the flop. Don't let SB hang around with middle or bottom pair, 76, 75, etc. and 4-5 outs.

I like the turn/river play. Though I think he almost always has Kx and not a FD, your line screams strength and it's very hard for him to 3bet you without having you beat.
Raising flop , SB would be getting 5-1 odds, is it enough to hang around with 5 outs if we count implied odds?
On second thought it does protect against that, but is it better than really protecting well on the turn against the FDs?
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DrivingDog
Old 06-29-2008, 10:04 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Yes, because he's more likely to have a pair or gutshot than a FD, and because you can't be sure you'll be bet into again on the turn.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 06-30-2008, 05:48 AM #13 (permalink)  
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I would just 3-ball the turn while we think our hand is probably good. If he caps it, oh well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Chopper
Old 06-30-2008, 03:08 PM #14 (permalink)  
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brings up another bad habit of mine...i think.

i tend, in position, to bet/call turns when i should/could 3bet strong hands. i do this because if i only call, i can get a c/r in on the river almost everytime. its kind of the same bb-wise, but...

- doesnt it take a bb or two away from my true monsters if someone is willing to get into a slugfest?

- and it DEFINITELY gives off the "miracle card" to my opponent more often than i care to give it.

i wish i knew why i did it. i think its FPS, but isnt it just better to blast the 3bet? if villain calls that, they arent folding the river. and, a river c/r rarely gets a 3bet, imo.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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