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ihategnomes
Old 02-13-2006, 06:52 PM     Post subject: Good link #1 (permalink)  
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http://zbasic.com/2006/02/saturday-f...have-call.html

To back up some of Jeffs theories.
Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-13-2006, 09:10 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 SSHHHH.


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ArcticKnight
Old 02-14-2006, 12:13 AM #3 (permalink)  
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It's funny

I was just venting to Jeff in a PM about this Sunday running into passive players... In one example I used an AQ who cold-called, called, called ,called and beat my KTs on a Q-10-7-5-2 board. In this case a TAG flop raise would have led to a call by me and then a check/bet/fold for me on the turn, but instead he got an extra 1.5BBs out of me.

I realize the guy in the Blog is only rarely passive , but he's on to a good thing if he mixes it up. I'm getting so I don't want position on a 50/5 player anymore. I'd rather have a 45/25 player on my right.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-14-2006, 12:38 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
I realize the guy in the Blog is only rarely passive , but he's on to a good thing if he mixes it up. I'm getting so I don't want position on a 50/5 player anymore. I'd rather have a 45/25 player on my right.
Actually, both are optimal.

Oh, and get on vent!


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euphoricism
Old 02-14-2006, 03:06 PM #5 (permalink)  
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MMmm. Interesting. Counter - Intuitive as well.

So when is it most applicable? His example is flopping top pair with a Q kicker and being donkbet into on the flop.

A73 -- we call down, because we don't want to scare off our opponents weak ace?
What if it was A73heart: -- we call down because we don't want to scare off a weak ace, and the flush draw is calling a raise anyway? Lots of people donk out flop number two hoping to be raised, so they can c/r when they hit their flush.

So, it has to be more player specific than board specific -- and might be a place where someones W2SD W@SD ratio could be important. Someone who doesn't go to showdown much -- just call, as you don't want to scare them off their weak hand. Someone who goes to show down too much, raise because they're more likely to call you down with their weak holding?

I know, deep down, that this W$/W@ ratio is important. I just haven't decided how. It just seems so overlooked. This could be the spot.
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Warpe
Old 02-14-2006, 03:29 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=28780



 
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dsaxton
Old 02-14-2006, 04:46 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Perhaps, but this assumes the player will actually fold a bad ace when faced with strength. If the other guy won't (as is the case with most loose-passive players), there is no point in playing passively with the probable best hand.
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pokerfanatic
Old 02-14-2006, 05:23 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28780
not sure why you gave us a link to a NL Hand...
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Warpe
Old 02-14-2006, 06:07 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28780
not sure why you gave us a link to a NL Hand...
It's just an interesting example of the passive strategy at work...villain with AA basically lets Fnord feed the pot.



 
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pokerfanatic
Old 02-14-2006, 07:19 PM #10 (permalink)  
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well being argo in Nl is much diffrent then being argo in Limit so i was just questioning the relavince...

if you were to play limit argo in a NL game you go broke a ton, if you play NL argo in a limit game it's consedered passive...

if that makes any since...
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ihategnomes
Old 02-14-2006, 08:23 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Well in NL its a bit different, since pot size control plays suck a crucial factor.
Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
 
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euphoricism
Old 02-15-2006, 08:09 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Something I wrote in the low limit page, which I think sums up my thoughts well..

Quote:
You should raise only if you're going to get called, and still have the best hand at showdown, otherwise, it accomplishes nothing. Generally speaking, If you think you have the best hand now, but might not by showdown, you should raise now in an attempt to take the pot before you lose it. If youre raising and not getting called when you really want to be called - youre losing money.
Thoughts? I think the first sentence is a little "iffy" as in, not entirely true. But I think you get my point with it.
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Warpe
Old 02-15-2006, 08:18 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 This statement:

Quote:
You should raise only if you're going to get called, and still have the best hand at showdown, otherwise, it accomplishes nothing.
contradicts this statement:

Quote:
Generally speaking, if you think you have the best hand now, but might not by showdown, you should raise now in an attempt to take the pot before you lose it.
but supports this statement:

Quote:
If you're raising and not getting called when you really want to be called - you're losing money.



 
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euphoricism
Old 02-15-2006, 09:24 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Good point, I'll have to think about it some more. My phrasing isn't correct, but i think my point is there.


It seems like the link says, "You should slowplay sometimes." which is like.. um. no shit? But I think it's trying to get at something deeper.
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Warpe
Old 02-15-2006, 09:59 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
"You should slowplay sometimes." which is like.. um. no shit?
rofl

How 'bout:

"Pokah playa only laise for two leasons: To get called, and to not get called."

Snatch this pebble from my hand, glasshoppah.



 
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euphoricism
Old 02-16-2006, 12:31 AM #16 (permalink)  
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/me bows humbly
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jmontis
Old 02-17-2006, 12:43 AM #17 (permalink)  
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none of that is new theory to FTR players who have posted here for a long enough time. We've all been saying TAG isn't the be all end all of poker.
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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euphoricism
Old 02-17-2006, 12:49 AM #18 (permalink)  
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True.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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