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Good draw vs tighty 150 deep

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drmcboy

02-24-2009, 08:09 PM Post subject: Good draw vs tighty 150 deep

#1 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,601

I think he's been sitting about 100 hands total on two of my tables and hadn't done much of anything, one spot where he flopped TP and OESD and ended up AI 3 betting the turn vs a half stack after he checked the flop but he's running like 18/12 or something. I have been raising my share I guess but I would think I have an OK image. On the other table I had just lost a big pot so he may think I'm tilting - as it happens I had an KK+ NFD+gutter there too!

Since I have the A and K spade it seemed like he had to have a set? If we call what is the plan?

Also what do people think of the flop?

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $4.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($358.50)
SB ($486)
Hero (BB) ($863.10)
UTG ($438)
MP ($674)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10

, K

, A

, K

1 fold, MP bets $14, 2 folds, Hero calls $10

Flop: ($30) 3

, 4

, 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $20, MP raises to $90, Hero calls $70

Turn: ($210) Q

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $150,

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Da GOAT

02-24-2009, 09:23 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Dublin

Posts: 4,308

take it that im a noob, how can we calc equity here?

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

griffey24

02-25-2009, 12:37 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

I'm not sure if PLO is like NL in this regard. But I know in NL if you're donk leading, then you should definitely have a plan for how to react to a raise, cause it happens so often.

Is donking in PLO more common such that getting raised should actually be taken seriously?

Aside from that, if he's overplaying AA then we have very good equity. If he does in fact have a set, then we have our flush outs AND our outs to our own set, not to mention our backdoor diamonds.

I feel like this hand must be strong enough to 3bet/get it in. I also feel like I shouldn't be giving advice haha.. but I'm trying!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

swiggidy

02-25-2009, 12:55 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

take it that im a noob, how can we calc equity here?

copy paste because of the weird coding

Code:

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/simulate.jsp?g=oh&b=3s4d9s&h1=tdksaskd&h2=99**&h3=&h4=&h5=

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

drmcboy

02-25-2009, 01:56 AM

#5 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,601

Hey please post all you like, we need the traffic and Spenda's the only one who knows what he is doing anyway.

Quote:

Is donking in PLO more common such that getting raised should actually be taken seriously?

people check to the raiser less, esp in multiway pots because free cards are much more dangerous. Also people c bet a lot less than in HE. Saying that CR is probably standard line here HU but I was not sure he would c-bet because he was tight & it's hard to believe he hit this board.

Quote:

I feel like this hand must be strong enough to 3bet/get it in.

it is but the problem is (imo) if I 3 bet the flop we fold out every hand except sets or maybe 6534 or AA+ two pair. So I'm hoping to keep some worse hands around.

I should have said in OP that I was not folding the turn, question is lead again, CRAI or c/c.

In general I would surprised if he raised me here with AA on the flop and shocked he did not check behind the turn with AA after I call. He could ofc have AA56/JT/Q9 which is why omaha is so much fun.

griffey24

02-25-2009, 02:35 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Isn't it very likely he has some very big straight draw on this flop (5678,4567 etc)? Don't we want to get it all-in on the flop vs these types of hands, given that we're drawing to the nuts and he might not be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

drmcboy

02-25-2009, 04:09 PM

#7 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,601

Now we get into the part where I know some of the results so it is tough for me to answer honesty. At the time I did not think he would have raised flop/bet the turn with those hands unless maybe he had spades to go with them - it breaks the cardinal omaha rule and 18/12 types usually don't roll that way. I ran some equities for fun, we need a stovemaha

draw no spades

Code:

pokenum  -o as ks td kd  - 8d 7c 6h 5h  -- 9s 3s 4h 
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 9s 3s 4h
cards                    win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
As Ks  Kd  Td   542  66.10    278  33.90    0  0.00  0.661
7c 8d  6h  5h      278  33.90    542  66.10    0  0.00  0.339

set

Code:

pokenum  -o as ks td kd  - 8d 7c 9h 9d  -- 9s 3s 4h 
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 9s 3s 4h
cards                   win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie  EV
As Ks  Kd  Td  285  34.76   535  65.24    0  0.00  0.348
7c 9d  8d  9h     535  65.24   285  34.76    0  0.00  0.652

draw with spades

Code:

pokenum  -o as ks td kd  - 8d 7c 6s 5s  -- 9s 3s 4h 
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 9s 3s 4h
cards                    win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
As Ks  Kd  Td  498  60.73   322  39.27    0  0.00  0.607
6s 5s  7c  8d       322  39.27   498  60.73    0  0.00  0.393

two pair osed spades

Code:

pokenum  -o as ks td kd  - 6s 5s 3h 4c  -- 9s 3s 4h 
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 9s 3s 4h
cards                  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
As Ks  Kd  Td  346  42.20   474  57.80    0  0.00  0.422
6s 5s  4c  3h      474  57.80   346  42.20    0  0.00  0.578

two pair osed no spades

Code:

pokenum  -o as ks td kd  - 6d 5h 3h 4c  -- 9s 3s 4h 
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 9s 3s 4h
cards                   win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
As Ks  Kd  Td  378  46.10   442  53.90    0  0.00  0.461
4c 6d  5h  3h      442  53.90   378  46.10    0  0.00  0.539

AA two pair

Code:

pokenum  -o as ks td kd  - ad ah 3h 4c  -- 9s 3s 4h 
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 9s 3s 4h
cards                 win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
As Ks  Kd  Td  322  39.27   498  60.73    0  0.00  0.393
4c Ad  Ah  3h  498  60.73   322  39.27    0  0.00  0.607

AA draw

Code:

pokenum  -o as ks td kd  - ad ah 6h 5c  -- 9s 3s 4h 
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 9s 3s 4h
cards                  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
As Ks  Kd  Td  372  45.37   448  54.63    0  0.00  0.454
5c Ad  Ah  6h  448  54.63   372  45.37    0  0.00  0.546

griffey24

02-25-2009, 04:56 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

<waits for someone to invent PLO poker stove, so that we can combine all these cases together>

Looking at all these equities though, it looks to me like all of these scenario's kind of balance out in terms of equity such that we're essentially flipping vs his entire range. Just seems like our worst case scenario (set) and best case scenario (vs straight draw) avg out to 50/50. All the other scenario's together seem to as well.

I'd rather try getting it in on the flop if that is indeed the case, flipping vs his range, plus the dead money, plus we might still have some fold equity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

bigspenda73

02-25-2009, 06:02 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

could you ever have a set here?

does it really matter?

does getting the money in on the turn provide an advantage over just calling again?

drmcboy

02-25-2009, 06:03 PM

#10 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,601

before I forget Goat here is the calc I use:

http://twodimes.net/poker/

swiggs looks about the same but it looks like they explain it better on the page so I may switch.

Here is the generic link

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...tionEditor.jsp

It isn't 'bad' for sure to just get it in, I'm just trying to figure out if there is a better way to play it.

After the flop 3 bet he'll still have ~275 behind and he can fold sets if a spade comes. I have to guess what to do on any non K turn. Is the board pairing good or bad? All other cards may help him and won't scare him into folding a set I would not think.

If I was sure he would just shove with all the hands above I would have 3 bet for sure but I think he'll usually just do that when we are behind and take one off with the hands we are ahead off since he'll assume we have a set and he knows we can't fold after a 3b. And we know if he is bluffing the flop he'll easily get away from it.

It may just be that OOP we can't create a better line than flipping for stacks. If we c/r flop he can now 3b himself with two pair/big AA/sets and call behind with even more money left. I do not like the way I played this but I'm struggling with better.

salsa4ever

03-05-2009, 01:15 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

7+3+2 clean outs on the turn

I think I would c/c, c/c and c/evaluate if missed.

passive, but right now I'm believing him. Depending on whether you're frisky, you might lead the river on a 2/5/6/7 and with the possibility of the low straight he can't be sure to fold to a spade.

That and the fact if you hit your runner gutshot or KKK you can stack him.

He also might not have the guts to triple barrel his missed draw and you might just win it.

That said, if you're feeling lucky, it can't be that wrong to just flip for stacks on the flop when you're OOP. That's what I'd do against an unknown or if I were 100BB deep

results btw?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

drmcboy

03-05-2009, 03:26 AM

#12 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,601

I called the turn, salsa's thoughts were pretty much mine at the time.

river was a red 5, I checked, he thought a little bit then shoved, I folded.

davis13

03-05-2009, 06:24 AM

#13 (permalink)

One Pair

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 24

With the money so deep this is fairly akward, but I am always 3 betting AKKxds where x=T-Q strictly for value, flop I think being this 175 bbs deep it can go a lot of ways, generally we normally just c/r this and call a shove but being slightly deeper and how the texture of the board giving no real made hands but 99xx maybe he has QJ98 type of hand with spades? It fits the turn well too, I think c/c two streets UI and soul read river is alright but there has to be a better line then this is, maybe c/c flop, bet-call turn and fold river UI? Really stuck on this HH

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Good draw vs tighty 150 deep

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