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Give me an agrument for donking the flop (LHE)

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bigspenda73

01-12-2007, 08:20 PM Post subject: Give me an agrument for donking the flop (LHE)

#1 (permalink)

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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

Who ever donks a flop into a PFR in 6max? Anyone?

Does anyone have a good situation where they think it is better to bet into a PFR than to c/r or c/c c/r?

This is partly a tilty post but also one with some merit. I am getting a little upset about this (although I shouldn't, it lets me play perfectly).

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koolmoe

01-12-2007, 09:15 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I used to donk sets into aggressive players all the time hoping to 3-bet. But I haven't played limit in several months...

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Ltrain

01-12-2007, 10:28 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Multiway in the blinds with a good draw and pot equity is an easy donk. Another easy donk is an OESD with flush possibilities, which can be bet/ 3bet since you have about 50% equity.

Here is another, you are in the BB, habitual stealer who is either passive post flop or predictable TAG raises on the button, you call with say K,7s HU. If the flop is low cards with your paired 7's, which should give you the advantage, why not donk instead of check call as a change of pace? In effect, you now become the aggressor and removes the possibility the raiser will fold to your checkraise, and almost every player will call, possibly raise overcards, which is not bad for you in this spot (if you don't give him the free card on the turn.)

Let's say the turn is a blank and you donk the turn, now what? A raise from either of these players probably has you beat, you can fold. A call is likely overcards, which is good for you oddswise in this situation and will check through if you check now. Also, your hand is too fragile not to try and fold out the aggressor if you can to take the pot now.

Don't be afraid to throw a donk in every once in a while, it changes the tempo almost immediately and makes the raiser think. Also, think of why donking has a bad reputation. In big multiway games, donking is bad because you are giving drawing odds to calling players between you and the raiser, and if raised, are trapped to continued play. A better play is to checkraise (assuming it is checked to the raiser) to give bad odds to the players in between, thin the filed and trap the raiser into a bad decision. However, HU this is not the case and you may be better off donking in some situations if you think the raiser will call you down with something you beat, or check through if you check for a free card.

I agree with Koolmoe, but I usually save it for the turn. There is almost no way overcards can resist a turn raise/ calldown after you donk a turn bet on a blank turn.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

Nehmer

01-12-2007, 11:00 PM

#4 (permalink)

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I donk into the PFRer in multiway pots all the time if I have a strong, but not too strong hand and want the PFRer to raise me and limit the field.

|~|ypermegachi

01-12-2007, 11:04 PM

#5 (permalink)

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you donk. they raise. you call.
you donk again. they raise. you call.
you donk a 3rd time. wtf???

great mind games methinks.

bigspenda73

01-13-2007, 03:01 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ltrain

Don't be afraid to throw a donk in every once in a while, it changes the tempo almost immediately and makes the raiser think.

I like the tempo concept yet I am not sure what you truly mean by it. Would you only donk a made hand against 1 villian? Here are some spots, tell me what you think

I am running 27/20/1.5 and have not gotten out of line
Villian is running 40/10/.5

I open

UTG
Villian calls out of the SB, BB folds

Flop:

Villian donks, hero?

Here's another spot
UTG is 30/25/2
Hero is BB with

UTG raises, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop:

SB checks, Hero?

|~|ypermegachi

01-13-2007, 07:19 AM

#7 (permalink)

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raise hand 1.
bet hand 2.

koolmoe

01-13-2007, 11:33 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Hand 1 is a good raise if you think you can often get a free card.

Hand 2, I would not donk, because you don't want to lose the SB if at all possible. If you donk and UTG raises, SB will often fold mediocre hands that he might otherwise peel one with.

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euphoricism

01-14-2007, 02:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

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HEPFAP -loves- donking.

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bigspenda73

01-14-2007, 04:20 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

HEPFAP -loves- donking.

Spenda read HEPFAP

Spenda read about donking

Spenda confused

euphoricism

01-14-2007, 07:17 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Eh, confused about what?

Use it when you have a strong draw and want to build a pot.
Use it when you dont think villain has a damned thing. If you want to.
Use it to throw a wrench in the "natural order" of checking to the preflop raiser.
Use it to mix up your game against observant players.

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Ltrain

01-15-2007, 01:44 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ltrain

Don't be afraid to throw a donk in every once in a while, it changes the tempo almost immediately and makes the raiser think.

UTG
Villian calls out of the SB, BB folds

Flop:

Villian donks, hero?

Here's another spot
UTG is 30/25/2
Hero is BB with

UTG raises, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls

Flop:

SB checks, Hero?

Hand 1 I like a raise against aggressive opponents that may fold or who bet out draws, but against this passive opponent I would call, expecting him to check anything but top pair on the turn to give you a free card. Another donk bet on the turn is a fold UI.

Hand 2 is like Koolmoe said, check the turn, pfr bets to trap callers to more bets and give you better equity than risking HU with a bet. If you have enough callers to the villan's c/bet, you may even have equity to checkraise another bet on the flop.

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elipsesjeff

01-15-2007, 07:36 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I used to donk sets into aggressive players all the time hoping to 3-bet. But I haven't played limit in several months...

What also works well against the aggro fish who won't fold TPTK, call the raise then check/raise the turn. Against a TAG I bet 3/bet the flop as TPTK will most likely call you down with that line.

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Bullet Tooth

01-19-2007, 08:07 AM

#14 (permalink)

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I love donking. primaraly because I find it so hard when someone does it to me and AK has missed ... again...I hate feeling on the backfoot in a hand, so if I can pass that feeling onto someone else.. Just caring sharing I am

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Use it when you have a strong draw and want to build a pot.
Use it when you dont think villain has a damned thing. If you want to.
Use it to throw a wrench in the "natural order" of checking to the preflop raiser.
Use it to mix up your game against observant players.

I would like to add my thoughts.
Pot building when we can trap a limper or 3 before the anticipated raise.
Hand protection if PFR is on my direct left.
Information... how much does he like his hand now he has seen the flop. Is my low pocket pair good to his overcards, or does he really have it. I may 3 bet a thinking player (who would raise AK) to make sure (but I can be a bit fiesty). Calling a Cbet won't tell us anything and CRaising is over representing the hand and sucks in the PFR who may want to chase a bigger pot, not to mention, it costs too much if he does have it.

dsaxton

02-05-2007, 08:08 AM

#15 (permalink)

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The only time I remember donking was when I'd flopped either a monster made hand or a monster draw. Otherwise, I've always preferred check-raising or check-calling since the preflop raiser is virtually guaranteed to maintain the lead anyways.

NWNewell

03-17-2007, 02:02 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth

Agreed. Heads-up against a straight forward TAG who is capable of laying down on the flop, I love to do this in the BB.

I really like to use this variation of protecting my blinds. In stead of trying to protect preflop, I'll just call from the BB and bet out if the board flops no more than one weaker boardway card. (i.e. Q83, J72, T85, etc). This makes your bet look a little more ligitimate and keeps the pot small, so it is more convincing that you might have something and the small pot makes the drawing odds worse for the preflop raiser and gives him less incentive to fight over the small pot.

I mean, lets face it... a mid/late position preflop raiser almost never gives the BB credit for a hand when the blinds 3-bet heads up. The preflop raiser is not going to fold preflop. And now he can correctly draw with his two overs post flop with better than 7:1 pot odds.

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Give me an agrument for donking the flop (LHE)

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