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Getting started at LHE, some hands

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Vrax

07-06-2006, 01:01 AM Post subject: Getting started at LHE, some hands

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Poland

Posts: 632

Well, after 1 year of playing $25NL/$50NL nit style poker, I decided to give a shot to LHE $.5/$1 and see how it feels to bet $1 to $12 pot, get popped to $2 and wonder if TPTK is good

Those microstakes tables are crazy, loose, shitfuck of maniacs that cap 4way turn with crap, calldown AKJ flushed board with 88, call 3 big bets cold with bottom pair, then lead 4way paired flushed river, I thought NL tables are loose but NL tables are NITFEST in comparison to LHE tables.

There is first portion of hands which I think I screwed up by missing bets/folding too early/calling when beat etc. classic mistakes probably. Please, point out mistakes and give some feedback. LHE is totally new to me.

#1. Value raise preflop? Jam the pot on flop or c/c and try to hit? Bet out turn or pretend to be scared of flush and go for CR?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #357024208 at table: Table TH 88
Started: Thu Jul 06 02:06:08 2006

odavila is at seat 1 with 34.75
Excaliburr is at seat 2 with 16.25
ikoubas is at seat 3 with 89.88
99JM98 is at seat 4 with 47.17
denr is at seat 5 with 12.00
humene is at seat 6 with 61.83
therabbit1 is at seat 7 with 25.25
TK421? is at seat 8 with 24.50
VQT is at seat 9 with 14.75
_Vrax_ is at seat 10 with 19.50

99JM98 posts the large blind 0.50
ikoubas posts the small blind 0.25

ikoubas: --, --
99JM98: --, --
denr: --, --
humene: --, --
therabbit1: --, --
TK421?: --, --
VQT: --, --
_Vrax_: :Ad:, :Jd:
odavila: --, --
Excaliburr: --, --

Pre-flop:

denr: Call 0.50
humene: Fold
therabbit1: Fold
TK421?: Fold
VQT: Fold
_Vrax_: Raise 1.00
odavila: Fold
Excaliburr: Fold
ikoubas: Call 1.00
99JM98: Fold
denr: Call 1.00

Flop (Board:

, :Td

:

ikoubas: Bet 0.50
denr: Call 0.50
_Vrax_: Raise 1.00
ikoubas: Call 1.00
denr: Call 1.00

Turn (Board:

, :Td:,

):

ikoubas: Check
denr: Check
_Vrax_: Check

River (Board:

, :Td:,

, :Kd

:

ikoubas: Check
denr: Check
_Vrax_: Bet 1.00
ikoubas: Call 1.00
denr: Fold

Showdown:

_Vrax_ shows: :Ad:, :Jd: (ace high flush)

Mainpot:
_Vrax_ wins the pot of 8.25 with ace high flush

(0.25 rake were taken for this hand)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#2. How to handle postflop with overpair+non nut FD against possible better overpair?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #357011153 at table: Table TH 88
Started: Thu Jul 06 01:49:25 2006

odavila is at seat 1 with 32.00
trot1d is at seat 2 with 33.90
ikoubas is at seat 3 with 86.38
99JM98 is at seat 4 with 49.17
denr is at seat 5 with 0.00
humene is at seat 6 with 49.33
therabbit1 is at seat 7 with 26.75
Spoon44 is at seat 9 with 41.27
_Vrax_ is at seat 10 with 24.50

_Vrax_ posts the large blind 0.50
Spoon44 posts the small blind 0.25

Spoon44: --, --
_Vrax_: :Qc:, :Qh:
odavila: --, --
trot1d: --, --
ikoubas: --, --
99JM98: --, --
humene: --, --

Pre-flop:

odavila: Raise 1.00
trot1d: Fold
ikoubas: Call 1.00
99JM98: Fold
humene: Fold
Spoon44: Fold
_Vrax_: Raise 1.50
odavila: Raise 2.00
ikoubas: Call 2.00
_Vrax_: Call 2.00

Flop (Board:

, :Tc

:

_Vrax_: Check
odavila: Bet 0.50
ikoubas: Call 0.50
_Vrax_: Call 0.50

Turn (Board:

, :Tc:,

):

_Vrax_: Check
odavila: Bet 1.00
ikoubas: Call 1.00
_Vrax_: Call 1.00

River (Board:

, :Tc:,

):

_Vrax_: Check
odavila: Bet 1.00
ikoubas: Call 1.00
_Vrax_: Call 1.00

Showdown:

odavila shows: Js, Kc (King high flush) - yeah you got it right, that idiot capped preflop with KJos, thanks to new Boss soft I can take notes on players.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#3. I guess it's standard on loose passive table. 3 barrels with TPGK, right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #357008677 at table: Table TH 652
Started: Thu Jul 06 01:46:32 2006

99JM98 is at seat 1 with 17.27
hgokduman is at seat 2 with 17.38
mavilox is at seat 3 with 12.88
bunkerisma is at seat 4 with 73.85
josdrac is at seat 5 with 77.25
Spoon44 is at seat 6 with 18.99
will77x is at seat 7 with 15.50
_Vrax_ is at seat 8 with 75.87
lebou is at seat 9 with 50.75
therabbit1 is at seat 10 with 22.50

will77x posts the large blind 0.50
Spoon44 posts the small blind 0.25

Spoon44: --, --
will77x: --, --
_Vrax_: :Kc:, :Jc:
lebou: --, --
therabbit1: --, --
99JM98: --, --
hgokduman: --, --
mavilox: --, --
bunkerisma: --, --
josdrac: --, --

Pre-flop:

_Vrax_: Call 0.50
lebou: Call 0.50
therabbit1: Call 0.50
99JM98: Call 0.50
hgokduman: Call 0.50
mavilox: Fold
bunkerisma: Check
josdrac: Call 0.50
Spoon44: Call 0.50
will77x: Check

Flop (Board: :Jh:,

):

Spoon44: Check
will77x: Check
_Vrax_: Bet 0.50
lebou: Call 0.50
therabbit1: Fold
99JM98: Fold
hgokduman: Call 0.50
bunkerisma: Fold
josdrac: Call 0.50
Spoon44: Fold
will77x: Call 0.50

Turn (Board: :Jh:,

):

will77x: Check
_Vrax_: Bet 1.00
lebou: Fold
hgokduman: Call 1.00
josdrac: Fold
will77x: Fold

River (Board: :Jh:,

, :Th

:

_Vrax_: Bet 1.00
hgokduman: Call 1.00

Showdown:

_Vrax_ shows: Kc, Jc (a pair of Jacks)
hgokduman shows: Jd, 8d (a pair of Jacks)

Mainpot:
_Vrax_ wins the pot of 10.50 with a pair of Jacks, King kicker.

(0.50 rake were taken for this hand)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4. Ok, this is crazy hand, I got great flop, greater turn card and I think I played it like ultra weaktight NIT. This one is with thought process.

Hand #357000558 at table: Table TH 171
Started: Thu Jul 06 01:37:18 2006

Charlott23 is at seat 1 with 27.75
99JM98 is at seat 2 with 14.90
bdalax is at seat 3 with 31.50
_Vrax_ is at seat 4 with 62.05
RameloW is at seat 5 with 10.80
Link Show is at seat 6 with 20.85
therabbit1 is at seat 7 with 24.50
Terenova is at seat 8 with 31.25
Rigor M is at seat 9 with 36.00
rams77 is at seat 10 with 7.75

_Vrax_ posts the large blind 0.50
bdalax posts the small blind 0.25

bdalax: --, --
_Vrax_: :Qd:, :Qh:
RameloW: --, --
Link Show: --, --
therabbit1: --, --
Terenova: --, --
Rigor M: --, --
rams77: --, --
Charlott23: --, --
99JM98: --, --

Pre-flop:

RameloW: Call 0.50
Link Show: Call 0.50
therabbit1: Fold
Terenova: Call 0.50
Rigor M: Call 0.50
rams77: Call 0.50
Charlott23: Fold
99JM98: Fold
bdalax: Call 0.50
_Vrax_: Raise 1.00 - Great hand, pop it PF.
RameloW: Call 1.00
Link Show: Call 1.00
Terenova: Call 1.00
Rigor M: Call 1.00
rams77: Call 1.00
bdalax: Call 1.00

Flop (Board:

): I like that board, I have likely best hand, lots of people, I will go for checkraise to force draws to pay 2 bets.

bdalax: Check
_Vrax_: Check
RameloW: Bet 0.50 - ok it's probably lower overpair
Link Show: Raise 1.00 - wtf does he have 7?
Terenova: Fold
Rigor M: Call 1.00 - probably draw or loose call with overs.
rams77: Fold
bdalax: Call 1.00 - the same loose donk
_Vrax_: Call 1.00 - shit, I froze up, I probably should have 3bet it, right?
RameloW: Call 1.00 - I honestly dont know what the fuck are they call with.

Turn (Board:

):

Super card, draws are dead but I'm still concerned with that case 7 of flop raiser (yeah right, in NL I'd play it for stacks and break 2 hands and 1 idiot with draw and here I wonder if my fullhouse is good??? vrax you weaktight NIT!!!).

bdalax: Check
_Vrax_: Bet 1.00
RameloW: Call 1.00
Link Show: Raise 2.00 - yeah, the fucker HAS IT, no doubt.
Rigor M: Fold
bdalax: Call 2.00 - Draw, draw...
_Vrax_: Call 2.00 - I'll see that 7 and say "nh" pot is too large
RameloW: Call 2.00 - Draw, draw, draw....Call call call...

River (Board:

):

bdalax: Check
_Vrax_: Check
RameloW: Bet 1.00 - weird donkbet
Link Show: Raise 2.00 - "I have that 7!"
bdalax: Fold
_Vrax_: Call 2.00 - "Show it"
RameloW: Call 2.00 - "Yes, I want to see too if my something-high is good"

Showdown:

Link Show shows: 5c, 8c (three of a kind, Sevens) - maniac...?
_Vrax_ shows: Qd, Qh (full house)

Mainpot:
_Vrax_ wins the pot of 25.00 with full house

(1.00 rake were taken for this hand)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#5. Set HU against 3-bettor

Hand #356974375 at table: Table TH 171
Started: Thu Jul 06 01:09:52 2006

FredPerry is at seat 2 with 63.74
karras1974 is at seat 3 with 50.25
_Vrax_ is at seat 4 with 60.25
RameloW is at seat 5 with 12.95
GeoMeli is at seat 7 with 8.25
ferberca is at seat 9 with 8.25
rams77 is at seat 10 with 9.75

rams77 posts the large blind 0.50
ferberca posts the small blind 0.25
karras1974 posts all blind 0.75

ferberca: --, --
rams77: --, --
FredPerry: --, --
_Vrax_:

RameloW: --, --
GeoMeli: --, --

Pre-flop:

FredPerry: Fold
_Vrax_: Raise 1.00
RameloW: Call 1.00
GeoMeli: Fold
ferberca: Raise 1.50
rams77: Fold
_Vrax_: Call 1.50
RameloW: Call 1.50

Flop (Board: :Kh:, :Ts:,

):

ferberca: Check
_Vrax_: Bet 0.50
RameloW: Call 0.50
ferberca: Raise 1.00
_Vrax_: Raise 1.50
RameloW: Fold
ferberca: Raise 2.00
_Vrax_: Call 2.00

Turn (Board: :Kh:, :Ts:,

, :Jc

:

ferberca: Bet 1.00
_Vrax_: Raise 2.00
ferberca: Raise 3.00
_Vrax_: Call 3.00

River (Board: :Kh:, :Ts:,

, :Jc:,

):

ferberca: Bet 1.00
_Vrax_: Call 1.00

Showdown:

ferberca shows:

, :Js: (two pair, Jacks and Deuces)
_Vrax_ shows:

(three of a kind, Sixes)

Mainpot:
_Vrax_ wins the pot of 16.75 with three of a kind, Sixes

The dude showed J2 of spades for total air and was jamming the pot like crazy. I actually put him on overset. Those tables are SICK.

(0.50 rake were taken for this hand)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#6. That hand sucked. Do you find a fold here? I got milked here like total fish.

Hand #356975536 at table: Table TH 88
Started: Thu Jul 06 01:10:58 2006

copilote75 is at seat 1 with 10.15
trot1d is at seat 2 with 44.00
_Klass_ is at seat 3 with 18.00
99JM98 is at seat 4 with 51.67
Mertz is at seat 5 with 49.00
humene is at seat 6 with 20.33
Dando1 is at seat 7 with 54.44
olineczek is at seat 8 with 17.08
Spoon44 is at seat 9 with 19.52
_Vrax_ is at seat 10 with 35.50

Mertz posts the large blind 0.50
99JM98 posts the small blind 0.25

99JM98: --, --
Mertz: --, --
humene: --, --
Dando1: --, --
olineczek: --, --
Spoon44: --, --
_Vrax_: :Qh:, :Ah:
copilote75: --, --
trot1d: --, --
_Klass_: --, --

Pre-flop:

humene: Fold
Dando1: Fold
olineczek: Call 0.50
Spoon44: Call 0.50
_Vrax_: Raise 1.00
copilote75: Call 1.00
trot1d: Call 1.00
_Klass_: Fold
99JM98: Call 1.00
Mertz: Call 1.00
olineczek: Call 1.00
Spoon44: Call 1.00

Flop (Board:

, :As:,

):

99JM98: Check
Mertz: Check
olineczek: Bet 0.50
Spoon44: Call 0.50
_Vrax_: Raise 1.00
copilote75: Call 1.00
trot1d: Call 1.00
99JM98: Call 1.00
Mertz: Fold
olineczek: Call 1.00
Spoon44: Raise 1.50
_Vrax_: Raise 2.00
copilote75: Fold
trot1d: Call 2.00
99JM98: Fold
olineczek: Call 2.00
Spoon44: Call 2.00

Turn (Board:

, :As:,

):

olineczek: Check
Spoon44: Bet 1.00
_Vrax_: Call 1.00
trot1d: Call 1.00
olineczek: Call 1.00

River (Board:

, :As:,

):

olineczek: Check
Spoon44: Bet 1.00
_Vrax_: Call 1.00
trot1d: Call 1.00
olineczek: Raise 2.00
Spoon44: Call 2.00
_Vrax_: Call 2.00
trot1d: Call 2.00

Showdown:

olineczek shows:

(two pair, Fours and Threes)
Spoon44 shows:

(straight to the Five)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#7. AQ sooted, cold call in position? How was my play on further streets? Pop the turn or river or just calldown TPTK-ish hands?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #356963925 at table: Table TH 310
Started: Thu Jul 06 01:00:00 2006

vasos7 pei is at seat 1 with 17.00
PuppyFeet is at seat 2 with 43.75
karras1974 is at seat 3 with 44.00
bunkerisma is at seat 4 with 74.76
_Klass_ is at seat 5 with 15.50
FakieThis is at seat 6 with 25.75
loketana is at seat 7 with 10.75
chini18 is at seat 8 with 14.27
99JM98 is at seat 9 with 30.87
_Vrax_ is at seat 10 with 49.50

bunkerisma posts the large blind 0.50
PuppyFeet posts the small blind 0.25
chini18 posts the small blind 0.25

PuppyFeet: --, --
bunkerisma: --, --
_Klass_: --, --
FakieThis: --, --
loketana: --, --
99JM98: --, --
_Vrax_: :Qd:, :Ad:
vasos7 pei: --, --

Pre-flop:

_Klass_: Call 0.50
FakieThis: Raise 1.00
loketana: Call 1.00
99JM98: Fold
_Vrax_: Call 1.00
vasos7 pei: Call 1.00
PuppyFeet: Fold
bunkerisma: Call 1.00
_Klass_: Call 1.00

Flop (Board:

, :Qh

:

bunkerisma: Check
_Klass_: Check
FakieThis: Bet 0.50
loketana: Fold
_Vrax_: Raise 1.00
vasos7 pei: Call 1.00
bunkerisma: Call 1.00
_Klass_: Call 1.00
FakieThis: Call 1.00

Turn (Board:

, :Qh:,

):

bunkerisma: Check
_Klass_: Check
FakieThis: Bet 1.00
_Vrax_: Call 1.00
vasos7 pei: Call 1.00
bunkerisma: Call 1.00
_Klass_: Call 1.00

River (Board:

, :Qh:,

):

bunkerisma: Check
_Klass_: Check
FakieThis: Bet 1.00
_Vrax_: Call 1.00
vasos7 pei: Fold
bunkerisma: Fold
_Klass_: Fold

Showdown:

FakieThis shows: :Ks:, :Qc: (a pair of Queens)
_Vrax_ shows: :Qd:, :Ad: (a pair of Queens)

Mainpot:
_Vrax_ wins the pot of 17.50 with a pair of Queens, Ace kicker.

(0.75 rake were taken for this hand)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

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euphoricism

07-06-2006, 02:09 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Use the hand converters in the sticky. These unformatted histories are absolutely brutal

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

bigspenda73

07-06-2006, 03:08 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

Im interested to know if the guy had 4 7's, you didn't post the showdown, were the queens good or did he have AA or KK? Lemme know

Vrax

07-06-2006, 12:05 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Poland

Posts: 632

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Im interested to know if the guy had 4 7's, you didn't post the showdown, were the queens good or did he have AA or KK? Lemme know

He had OESD that missed, and MHIG.

"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

midas06

07-06-2006, 12:14 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: NZ

Posts: 2,196

if you convert these you'll get more responses

Vrax

07-06-2006, 12:18 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Poland

Posts: 632

Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

if you convert these you'll get more responses

I tried to to that, converter doesnt recognise the format. It's hand history from Boss Network and it seems to be incompatible with Bisonbison's converter.

"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

Xanadu

07-06-2006, 04:41 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

If you can't convert them, only post 1 or 2 at a time. I couldn't make it through them all as they were.

I can definitely see a lot of NL thinking here. 2 of the biggest differences are that you don't need nearly as high of winning chances to continue in limit because of the better pot odds you will have, and that you have to work harder to protect your hand because you can't bet whatever you want. A key skill in limit poker is knowing when to protect, when to value bet, and when to try to get free or cheap cards.

Hand 1, you were correct to pump the flop with a great draw ... flush plus overs. You should follow up with a turn bet. You may get some hands to fold that will buy you some outs to top pair. You may also get a hand to fold to give you the best hand with A-high. You also get the added advantage that your opponents may be more inclined to call you if you make your flush on the river. Do not go for the check-raise on the river. You miss more bets in the long run.

Hand 2, you have a nice flop, gutshot, 1 card Q-high flush draw, and overpair. Although vulnerable, you will win this hand more than enough to value bet. The pot is so large from the preflop cap that protecting your hand is virtually impossible, so just lead out with a value bet. Same for turn. The river play is fine. You can't fold, but with all the preflop action, the odds of the K or A of clubs being out are pretty high, so don't risk getting raised.

Hand 3, with so many in the pot, it is unlikely you will have a good chance to protect your hand, so betting all streets is probably the right play.

Hand 4, the flop call is good in my book. You want to wait for a good card on the turn, as a lot of cards really drop your winning chances. A raise is very unlikely to get anyone to fold too. The turn was probably the best card for you, as a Q overcard might shut down some action from 6s and pocket pairs. Limit players love to go nuts over a 3 of a kind board. Don't give him credit for the 7. Raise it up. He probably has a 6 or lower pp. You said you called because the pot was so large. Even in a small pot, you call here. And because the pot is large, you raise not as much for value, but to protect your hand. Any A or K out there is a huge threat to you, and if possible, you want RameloW to fold. I pump the river unless it gets heads up, then 3 bets is enough. You should have won a lot more bets on this hand.

Hand 5, you played preflop like a NL player. 66 is a good call UTG +1 at a loose/passive table, and a good fold at a loose/aggressive table. Raising just gives you worse implied odds on a set, which is what you are likely going to need to continue past the flop. You can't price the hands that miss the flop out of the pot with a big bet, so 66 has less raising value in limit from EP. Use med/small pps for a raise only in late position to blind steal or iso-raise a very weak player. A call on the flop might be better to try to take another player to the turn. On this board, if you are ahead, it will be very hard for anyone to out draw you. QJ is the only really dangerous hand. If people are calling raises like maniacs though, pump it. I see no reason not to cap the turn or raise the river. Notice the horrible hand your opponent had. This is more likely than a hand that beats you.

Hand 6, don't be hard on yourself. It depends on table reads to find a fold anywhere here. Capping the flop is a little aggressive. It's hard to fold a turn when you have so many outs to beat 2pair with a very big pot. You can consider a river raise if you think the better could have a weaker hand than you, and the 2 players left to act are capable of laying down a low 2pair. With 2 left to act though, probably not worth it. One thing to remember though, is it is better in limit to call down a good hand a little too much than to fold a little too much. There are 21 bets in the pot on the river. If you are ahead 5% of the time, you profit from a call. Keep that in mind when calling on the river ... what % of the time do I need to be ahead for a call to be profitable?

Hand 7, either a call or raise can be right preflop. Especially raise if button and the blinds are likely to call. Good multi-way hand. I raise the turn. There are draws you would like to fold. As played, I call the river, hoping for overcalls.

Vrax

07-06-2006, 10:40 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Poland

Posts: 632

Hey Xanadu, thanks for long and constructive feedback, I learned a lot from it. You got it right 100% to the point, the big picture was my NL thinking.

I know those HH's are messy and tough to read, I will convert it manually next time and put only few HH's/ post. Bigger thanks for you for going through that mess.

Yes, now I see that LHE is not "just different" than NL, it's totally different.

In NL my source of profit was breaking strong second best hands & stubborn draws while not getting destacked myself in stupid way like being outkicked with AJos or calling AI with QQ againt nit.

In LHE there is a lot more thinking in terms of "pot equity, odds" while my entire thinking process was oriented in the terms of "pressuring, hand repping, creating implied threat, making stack-saving laydowns, putting him on hand" and I have hard time to adapt to limit thinking which has a lot more math in it.

"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

not2smart

07-06-2006, 11:08 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: I belong to the night... and to the hidden corners of every room in the house

Posts: 32

i only read the first hand so far... but you MUST bet the turn when checked to. you need that fold equity!!

Ninjas aren't just great warriors.. they are great people too!

Nehmer

07-06-2006, 11:21 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2smart

i only read the first hand so far... but you MUST bet the turn when checked to. you need that fold equity!!

I disagree. Betting the turn typically isn't a bad play, but if you know that at least one opponent is going to call, you don't have the right pot equity to make the bet worth while. You can probably count on about 12 outs here, meaning you have a 25% chance of hitting a winning hand. This means you have to get them both to fold a decent amount of the time in order for the bet to be worth while...This means that betting/checking depends on reads of opponents and definately isn't clear cut one way or the other.

flaptornriver

07-06-2006, 11:29 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2006

Posts: 25

I don't mind checking the turn, but when you do, you are pretty much telling everybody you were on a free card play to hit the flush. This will effectively kill your river action if you do hit it, depending on your table image. I would check the turn half the time in this spot and bet the turn the other half to mix it up. Either play is fine imo.

"If the only tool you have is a hammer,
everything tends to look like a nail."

not2smart

07-06-2006, 11:33 PM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: I belong to the night... and to the hidden corners of every room in the house

Posts: 32

nehmer... that assumes that you are behind in the hand and need one of your outs (25%) to win. i would not make that assumption. i want hands with outs to fold... hands that could spike a pair on the river. if i am behind.. i want to give bottom pair or small pocket pairs a chance to get out too.

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Xanadu

07-06-2006, 11:37 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nehmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2smart

i only read the first hand so far... but you MUST bet the turn when checked to. you need that fold equity!!

So, what if any of the following hands fold:

A5, A6, A8, J5, J6, J8, any 4, any 5, any 6, any 8, any 9, 23, JQ, 22, 33, 44, 77?

Think that might be worth it in a big pot? All of those hands might fold, and beat you now, or have outs to beat you if A-high is good or if you hit an A or J on the river. The pot is big, and there are a massive amount of hands that can hurt you but you have a chance to fold.

Nehmer

07-07-2006, 04:21 AM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nehmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2smart

i only read the first hand so far... but you MUST bet the turn when checked to. you need that fold equity!!

I did say that betting typically isn't a bad play and I do usually bet this turn, but what if you are up against JT and garbage and check behind getting a free river to try and hit your flush draw in a pot where you don't have the equity needed to make a bet worth while? Think that might be worth it? I'm not saying betting here is bad, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be automatic and it is definately worth thinking about the check in a lot of situations. If your read on ikoubas is that he doesn't donk the flop without at least a pair and probably top pair, saying that betting the turn is a MUST is just not right. Just like saying that you should always check wouldn't be right. We were given no reads, so we can't really say always to anything here.

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