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Getting slaughtered at Party...where are the leaks???

  
 
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roymunson451
Old 10-03-2006, 04:46 AM     Post subject: Getting slaughtered at Party...where are the leaks??? #1 (permalink)  
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So I have been playing alot at Party, and my premiums have been my biggest holes. When to toss?

Hand #1
ace seemed pretty semi-loose agg so far.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qs Qd ]
Spike444 folds.
steamboater folds.
Celeborn80 folds.
ace2000 raises [$4].
RoyalDreamer is all-In [$4.25]
brownenic61 folds.
Hero raises [$4].
ace2000 raises [$4].
>You have options at Noisy Blue Table!.
wilkat10 has left the table.
Hero calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 8s, 5d ]
Hero checks.
ace2000 bets [$2].
Hero raises [$4].
ace2000 raises [$4].
Hero raises [$4].
ace2000 calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
Herobets [$4].
ace2000 raises [$8].
Hero calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]
Hero checks.
ace2000 bets [$4].
Hero raises [$8].
ace2000 calls [$4].

Hero shows [ Qs, Qd ] a full house, Eights full of queens.
ace2000 shows [ Kc, Kh ] a full house, Eights full of kings.
RoyalDreamer doesnt show [ Td, Th ] a full house, Eights full of tens.
ace2000 wins $52 from side pot #1 with a full house, Eights full of kings.
ace2000 wins $13.75 from the main pot with a full house, Eights full of kings.

Hand #2 (next hand)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero[ Ah Kd ]
kcchief1731 has left the table.
wilkat10 has joined the table.
Hero raises [$4].
Spike444 raises [$6].
steamboater folds.
Celeborn80 folds.
ace2000 calls [$6].
RoyalDreamer folds.
brownenic61 folds.
Hero calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, 4c, 8s ]
Hero checks.
Spike444 bets [$2].
ace2000 raises [$4].
Hero raises [$6].
Spike444 calls [$4].
ace2000 calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
Hero checks.
Spike444 bets [$4].
ace2000 calls [$4].
Hero calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
Hero checks.
Spike444 bets [$4].
ace2000 raises [$8].
Hero folds.
Spike444 raises [$8].
ace2000 raises [$8].
Spike444 calls [$4].
ace2000 shows [ Ac, Qc ] two pairs, aces and queens.
Spike444 shows [ 8d, 8c ] three of a kind, eights.

When should I have let QQ go? and did I play AK ok in the next hand?
Thanks guys.
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midas06
Old 10-03-2006, 04:48 AM #2 (permalink)  
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check raising the river in hand one isn't that great. Hand 2 3bet preflop and go from there.
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elipsesjeff
Old 10-03-2006, 07:10 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Use the converter. You went so far as to add the white text but finish it off!


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bigspenda73
Old 10-03-2006, 08:13 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Ehh, hand 1 is tough, looks like you're good but I just don't see myself getting that much in the pot w/ QQ on that board, dunno how you avoid it besides just check/calling the river. Tough break, but those hands happen

Hand 2: I certainly fold to the river raise, no way Im flat calling on the river w/ just one pair and the original bettor left to act behind me. Spike's line on the flop in hand 2 screams of a set/A8 unless he is totally a fish. Just look at the board, no hands are coldcalling a raise and a 3bet w/out atleast a strong holding. There is no draw to bet or call with so I believe you are beat going to the turn. The turn is tough b/c you're faced with just calling 1BB to peel a river. So, I call the turn and c/call one bet and c/f to 2 or more bets. I think its pretty obvious what you're up against by the river. One of 3 hands two players could hold, AQ/A8/88.

BTW, check/3betting the flop was a bit spewy IMO. Can you explain why you checked the flop? Then can you explain why you checked the turn? I don't get your line, toooo tricky for LHE.
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roymunson451
Old 10-03-2006, 03:19 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Ehh, hand 1 is tough, looks like you're good but I just don't see myself getting that much in the pot w/ QQ on that board, dunno how you avoid it besides just check/calling the river. Tough break, but those hands happen

Hand 2: I certainly fold to the river raise, no way Im flat calling on the river w/ just one pair and the original bettor left to act behind me. Spike's line on the flop in hand 2 screams of a set/A8 unless he is totally a fish. Just look at the board, no hands are coldcalling a raise and a 3bet w/out atleast a strong holding. There is no draw to bet or call with so I believe you are beat going to the turn. The turn is tough b/c you're faced with just calling 1BB to peel a river. So, I call the turn and c/call one bet and c/f to 2 or more bets. I think its pretty obvious what you're up against by the river. One of 3 hands two players could hold, AQ/A8/88.

BTW, check/3betting the flop was a bit spewy IMO. Can you explain why you checked the flop? Then can you explain why you checked the turn? I don't get your line, toooo tricky for LHE.
Hand 2:
I RR on the flop to try to isolate Spike, which I hoped was betting w/an underpair or A wK. As for Ace, I knew he would probably call, then check/fold the turn if he had anything less than A good kicker. When Spike called, I knew I was screwed. I put him on A8, and Ace prob AJ.
On the turn, I had intentions to C/F. I had good odds to call, so I called the turn bet. Unimproved on the R, I folded.

Question though, should I have capped preflop w/AK?
Thanks
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outphase
Old 10-03-2006, 04:33 PM #6 (permalink)  
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you check/raise too much for the wrong reason. You're building a bigger pot that you won't want to let go of.

hand 1: you're not folding, neither is anyone else, i don't think the river c/r is great

hand 2: better, but you try to be clever too much in a big field. With higher hands in a big field, play them straight up, not fancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 10-03-2006, 04:51 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Why do people think that they are special compared to everyone else that they don't need to use a converter? Unless you have played a hand that can't be converted then use the damn thing...

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com...hconverter.cgi

I absolutely refuse to give anyone advice that is too lazy to take an extra 1 min to post a hand that is user friendly... that’s just plan lazy, and this one I find even more ridicules given you put the results in white… I'm mean really, take the extrea time to do it right...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

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roymunson451
Old 10-03-2006, 05:05 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Why do people think that they are special compared to everyone else that they don't need to use a converter? Unless you have played a hand that can't be converted then use the damn thing...

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com...hconverter.cgi

I absolutely refuse to give anyone advice that is too lazy to take an extra 1 min to post a hand that is user friendly... that’s just plan lazy, and this one I find even more ridicules given you put the results in white… I'm mean really, take the extrea time to do it right...
Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize my error was so great considering my previous 50 posts were w/o the converter. I'll use it from now on.
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arkitekton
Old 10-04-2006, 05:44 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Without looking at the results, I can tell you that you are way, way overboard with Hand 1. A lot of people won't cap the flop without AA or KK. A slightly looser range, which isn't rare to see, is AA-QQ and AKs.
This means you're substantially behind most of the time, and have 2 outs when you are behind. This means "Stop Betting So Much!"
I'd be reluctant to do anything but check call to the river after villain's flop cap. Betting and raising only help you if you're ahead or if you can persuade villain to fold holding AK, and an A or K would have come on the turn or river--not a combination that's going to happen a lot. Keep in mind too that every time you bet here, you're giving villain odds. If he happens to have AK he can always decide to call it down (or fold!), whereas with a bigger pair he can always keep raising. I can't think of anyone other than a certifiable maniac who would cap the flop then reraise once check raised on the flop without KK or better.

Hand 2 I don't understand. You checked on the flop, planning to check raise w TPTK, did so, and everyone called. Then you checked the turn when an unthreatening card came. I think I would have called the flop raise and check raised the turn when the blank came.
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elipsesjeff
Old 10-04-2006, 07:01 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Why do people think that they are special compared to everyone else that they don't need to use a converter? Unless you have played a hand that can't be converted then use the damn thing...

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com...hconverter.cgi

I absolutely refuse to give anyone advice that is too lazy to take an extra 1 min to post a hand that is user friendly... that’s just plan lazy, and this one I find even more ridicules given you put the results in white… I'm mean really, take the extrea time to do it right...
LOL, pretty much why I didnt' comment on the hands


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NWNewell
Old 10-04-2006, 11:10 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Why do people think that they are special compared to everyone else that they don't need to use a converter? Unless you have played a hand that can't be converted then use the damn thing...

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com...hconverter.cgi

I absolutely refuse to give anyone advice that is too lazy to take an extra 1 min to post a hand that is user friendly... that’s just plan lazy, and this one I find even more ridicules given you put the results in white… I'm mean really, take the extrea time to do it right...
LOL, pretty much why I didnt' comment on the hands
Third vote here.... Stone him! :P

lol....

Quote:
Originally Posted by roymunson451
Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize my error was so great considering my previous 50 posts were w/o the converter. I'll use it from now on.
50 wrongs don't make a right.

Actually... There are some very good players that try to give good advice and comment on a lot of peoples hands. But if they have to constantly interpret people's raw hand histories, it will take 3 times as long (only 1/3 of the people recieve their good advice), and they will get burnt out and stop giving advice at all.

So, for your own benifit (more than others), use the coverter. You will get more replies and from better players.

pokerfanatic was just trying to make it sting a little so you would pay attention (since if this truely is your 50th post w/o converting, I find it hard to believe no one mentioned it before... more like you you didn't pay attention )

Not to mention there is a Sticky at the top of every Forum Catagory that says READ BEFORE POSTING: Hand History Guidelines


But now that I'm done "stoning you", I'll throw my two cents in....

In the first hand, I would probably only call his flop 3-bet. He might have an 8, but I'm much more worried about AA or KK. And although I'm thinking I'm behing a significan percentage of the time. I'm probably going to weakly call down. Becuase depending on the player, he could have JJ or TT, or maybe even going crazy with AK... making us a head enough to showdown. (After all the preflop and flop bets contruibuted, you've got almost 3:1 odds to call the one more flop bet and call down. So, you only need to win about a little less than 30% of the time to show a profit. So I would call down.)


I don't mind your preflop play of AK. Betting out is good. I could go either way after that. With exactly two opponents that you are out of position to, I am 50/50 on calling the raise or 3-betting. If you 3-bet and miss, you are out of position to both players. If you hit, you can could check raise. Exactly two opponents makes this boarderline to me. With only one, or 3+ opponents I'm definitely 3-betting.

Since you only called pre-flop, I like your check/raise on the flop. You've accomplished exactly what you wanted.

Why didn't you lead the turn. You can't put your opponent on 88 at this point had have to assume you have the lead. Don't let two oppoents try to draw out on you.

The river was a decent laydown. It's tough with TPTK. But a river raise and re-raise usually means one pair is no good. And if you have to call two bets, it is usually not worth it. if I already calle one, I may get sucked into calling one more.
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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Damian
Old 10-04-2006, 01:21 PM #12 (permalink)  

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Well Roy, you've been slaughtered at Party, and now you've been slaughtered at FTR.

Your having a pretty shit day.
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roymunson451
Old 10-04-2006, 03:49 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian
Well Roy, you've been slaughtered at Party, and now you've been slaughtered at FTR.

Your having a pretty shit day.
Ok, I tried to use the HH Converter. Where are the instructions for that thing? Can you just copy&paste into the input straight from the HH from PokerOffice?
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roymunson451
Old 10-04-2006, 04:00 PM #14 (permalink)  
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"Why didn't you lead the turn. You can't put your opponent on 88 at this point had have to assume you have the lead. Don't let two oppoents try to draw out on you."

I figured w/Spike calling my 3 bet, that I was already beat. My check/call on the turn was purely because I had the odds to catch trips or top two pair. Maybe I was thinking toooo much...I wasnt for sure if a continuation bet on the turn would have changed much. Would you have suggested a B/F on the turn? or a B/Call?
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Damian
Old 10-04-2006, 04:12 PM #15 (permalink)  

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[/quote]Ok, I tried to use the HH Converter. Where are the instructions for that thing? Can you just copy&paste into the input straight from the HH from PokerOffice?[/quote]

Yes, I just copy and paste straight from Poker Tracker, the output is HTML, just copy and paste that here.
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NWNewell
Old 10-04-2006, 05:55 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roymunson451
"Why didn't you lead the turn. You can't put your opponent on 88 at this point had have to assume you have the lead. Don't let two oppoents try to draw out on you."

I figured w/Spike calling my 3 bet, that I was already beat. My check/call on the turn was purely because I had the odds to catch trips or top two pair. Maybe I was thinking toooo much...I wasnt for sure if a continuation bet on the turn would have changed much. Would you have suggested a B/F on the turn? or a B/Call?
It doesn't mean you are beat. I would play AQ or AJ the exact same way he did (in fact, ace2000 almost did play it that way).

All I can really say is that you must have had a good read on Spike444.

I would not call 3-betting a middle pocket pair from early position standard (infact it is at the lower end of my EP raising range, depending on the table, I will limp at times... but I almost always fold 88 from EP to a raise). I would have expected a larger pocket pair or big Ace suited. So, it is tough to nail him to a on a set of 8's already and start checking the already. A8, or A4 doesn't make much sense for him to 3-bet preflop, so two pair is probably not beating you. If you thought you were behind, you are probably behind a set, and you should fold the turn. A set of 8's is possible, but I think it is a small enough possibility to value bet the turn (well, maybe calling it a value bet is a stretch). But I still think you need to bet the turn. If he raises the turn, then you have a tough fold to make.

Plus, he was already in for one bet on the flop, many, many loose players will call one and even two more bets to see the next card once they have already comitted a bet, even without much. So, putting him on a set after the flop is tough.

But if that was you read.... Well done, sir!

Well, almost... if that was your read, you should have folded the turn as you did not have odds to catch trips and TopTwoPair would do you no good.
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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