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getting bet into by new bettor on turn/river

  
 
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fooo
Old 12-07-2006, 12:36 AM     Post subject: getting bet into by new bettor on turn/river #1 (permalink)  

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I feel like I'm having trouble when facing a bet on the turn or river on hands where I'd taken the lead the whole way with opponents merely check-calling me. It seems most of the time, I'm being bet into with strong hands hitting on draws, but a fair amount of the time it's just a desperation bet. I'm very rarely folding here, and very rarely raising, and I feel like I'm playing way too passively a lot when this happens.

The live 3/6 players are in general very loose and very passive, and I think I've been very successful when controlling the hand and the betting, but very occasionally, I get faced with seemingly odd bets, where I'd expect a better player to check-raise stronger hands. This may seem like an odd hodge podge of hands, but your comments are appreciated.

Apologies for the lack of hand conversion on these B&M hands.
--------
1) Hero: Tc Th
Two limpers, Hero raises from CO, BN, SB, BB, two limpers call.

Flop: [8.7 SB] Ah 8h 3h
Four checks. Hero bets. BN, BB, MP1, HJ call.
--> Almost considered just check-folding at this point...

Turn: [7 BB] Ah 8h 3h 7s
Two checks. HJ bets. Hero folds. BN, BB call.
--> why bet this card? I'm actually more worried about four players left to act behind me than the bettor here, and my heart isn't big enough to draw to.

River: [10 BB] Ah 8h 3h 7s Jc
Checked around.
---------
2) Hero: As Ad
Three limpers, Hero raises from CO. SB, BB, three limpers call.

Flop: [10.7 SB] Ts 9d 4h
Five checks. Hero bets. BB, UTG, MP1, MP2 call.

Turn: [7 BB] Ts 9d 4h Ks
Three checks. Hero bets. BB, UTG, MP1 call. MP2 folds.

River: [11 BB] Ts 9d 4h Ks 9s
BB checks, UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls, BB folds.
--> Opponent is absolutely horrible and quite obvious, calls down with the slimmest of draws. I'm probably beat by something like 95o but nowhere near convinced enough to lay down.
----------
3) Hero: Jd Jc
UTG1 raises, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG1 calls, CO caps, Hero, UTG1 call.

Flop: [12 SB] 4s 2h 2s
Two checks. Hero bets, UTG1, CO call.

Turn: [7.5 BB] 4s 2h 2s 8d
Two checks. Hero bets, UTG1, CO call.

River: [10.5 BB] 4s 2h 2s 8d Th
UTG1 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.
--> Can't raise this, can I? Seems I'd be called or re-raised by weirdly played
AA-QQ, re-raised by TT and folded by weirdly played AK/AQ.
-----------
4) Hero: Ac As
UTG1, UTG2 limp, Hero raises, CO, BN, BB, UTG1, UTG2 call.

Flop: [11 SB] Qs Td 8h
Three checks, Hero bets, BN, BB, UTG1 call.

Turn: [7 BB] Qs Td 8h 6d
BB checks, UTG1 bets, Hero calls, BN folds, BB calls.
--> Not sure what a raise here accomplishes, loose passively calling down at
this point, feels wrong though.

River: [10 BB] Qs Td 8h 6d 8s
BB checks, UTG1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls.
--> Still thinking I'm beaten but now hopeful that I've pulled ahead of hands
like T6.
-----------
5) Hero: 7d 7h
UTG2, MP1, CO limp, Hero limps, BB checks.
Flop: [4 SB] Ac 9d 7s
Two checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG2 folds, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Turn: [4.5 BB] Ac 9d 7s Jd
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: [10.5 BB] Ac 9d 7s Jd 4s

MP1 bets, Hero calls.
-----------
6) Hero: Qd 9d
UTG1, MP1, MP2 limp, Hero limps on BN, BB checks.
Flop: [4 SB] Qs Td 6h
MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB, MP1, MP2 call.

Turn: [6 BB] Qs Td 6h Ah
Four checks, Hero bets, BB, MP2 call.
--> Bet here in position planning to check down river.

River: [9 BB] Qs Td 6h Ah Jh
BB bets, MP2, Hero fold.
--> 10:1 too big to lay down here? Seems way too many hands beat me. J9 and
weaker one pair queens (with which I'm now tied) are about the only hands I can
come up with that have a favorable outcome for me besides out and out bluffs.
-----------
7) Hero: 4c 4d
4 limpers, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: [4.7 SB] Kd 8s 4h
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG, MP1, BN, SB call.

Turn: [5 BB] Kd 8s 4h Qs
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, 2 folds, SB calls.

River: [8 BB] Kd 8s 4h Qs 6s
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.
--> The frequency of overcalls with losing hands that I see at these games seems large enough that just calling instead of raising is a superior play. I'd say I'm 50-50 against the SB, but that the UTG player will overcall with a losing hand as much as 50% of the time.
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bigspenda73
Old 12-07-2006, 12:55 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Don't have time to review all the hands but the flop bet in hand 1 is very poor IMO. Betting does nothing to protect your hand which is second best a lot of the time here anyway.
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-07-2006, 01:28 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 2,3,4,5, and 7 are all played fine.

The other two: meh.


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bigspenda73
Old 12-07-2006, 08:29 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 I think hand 6 the flop c/r is fine; the turn donk on the other hand is again...poor.

Im torn on hand 7, at first I decided your hoping for 1 overcall was a pretty bad play. However, the more i look at this river the less likely it seems that you are ahead of a river donk. Villian may have backed into a flush or GS straight. Just making sure you understand overcalls here though, you realize that with 3 players in the field and you in between this is not the spot for an overcall. If you want to make sure there is another BB in the pot, then raise this river bet. The 3rd player may still call and you got in at least two bets with a pretty safe board holding a set.
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-07-2006, 12:32 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Just making sure you understand overcalls here though, you realize that with 3 players in the field and you in between this is not the spot for an overcall. If you want to make sure there is another BB in the pot, then raise this river bet.
How is this not the right time to go for an overcall? Raising doesn't do anything but reopen the betting for villain to reraise, when there is a good chance at these levels idiot villain behind us will call anyway.


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fooo
Old 12-07-2006, 02:30 PM #6 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I think hand 6 the flop c/r is fine; the turn donk on the other hand is again...poor.
OK, so you both agree that hand 6 [Qd9d] was played poorly. In position, I've often tended to bet my weaker holdings on the turn like here because otherwise what am I doing when I get bet into on the river? I can let go of this hand on the turn to a check-raise, but do you recommend taking the free card on the turn and folding on the river unimproved or using the flop raise to get to a cheap showdown by checking the turn and calling the river? Jeff, not sure if you're saying I need to pay off the river with the pot size or if the mistake is elsewhere (or both). That's an ugly board for me to pay off 2nd pair with board kickers.

On the TT hand with an ace on board and three hearts on the flop.... just let it go to a bet against this big a field?

On hand #7, I wasn't so much hoping for an overcall as I was unafraid of an overcall and more worried about re-opening the betting to the SB, as Jeff points out. In referring to the overcalls I was considering the possibility SSHE brings up that the original bettor might be behind but the player left to act might be ahead and worth knocking out -- most likely not the situation here.
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Xanadu
Old 12-07-2006, 03:01 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Yes, the mistake on hand 6 was betting the turn. Just take the free card and hope for a free show down. Once a J or K falls on the river, it's an easy fold as you already knew. Any 2 broadways has you beat plus any K or any A. Even 10:1 isn't good enough odds here.
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NWNewell
Old 12-07-2006, 05:24 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Just making sure you understand overcalls here though, you realize that with 3 players in the field and you in between this is not the spot for an overcall. If you want to make sure there is another BB in the pot, then raise this river bet.
How is this not the right time to go for an overcall? Raising doesn't do anything but reopen the betting for villain to reraise, when there is a good chance at these levels idiot villain behind us will call anyway.
I would have to agree. I am only calling, and hoping for an overcall. But hoping for an overcall is not my main reason for only calling. If we raise, we are definitely chasing out the player behind use (unless he has us beat and they he is going to re-raise us). And similarly, the SB will probably only call if we are ahead, and we will get 3-bet by the SB if we are behind.

So, our raise isn't really for much value. We are risking one more BB to try to win one more big bet, when half the time it will end up costing use two big bets, and half the time we will only win one more big bet. Where, if we only called, we will get that extra big bet half the time at no added risk.

We would have to be ahead about 2/3 of the time to raise for value due to the posibility of getting 3-bet.

Depending on your assumptions and reads of the two oppoenents, either play may end up being a wash, but only calling is probably a more reliable and less volatile path.

Just my two cents, but I'm definitely only calling....
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-07-2006, 05:35 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWNewell
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Just making sure you understand overcalls here though, you realize that with 3 players in the field and you in between this is not the spot for an overcall. If you want to make sure there is another BB in the pot, then raise this river bet.
How is this not the right time to go for an overcall? Raising doesn't do anything but reopen the betting for villain to reraise, when there is a good chance at these levels idiot villain behind us will call anyway.
I would have to agree. I am only calling, and hoping for an overcall. But hoping for an overcall is not my main reason for only calling. If we raise, we are definitely chasing out the player behind use (unless he has us beat and they he is going to re-raise us). And similarly, the SB will probably only call if we are ahead, and we will get 3-bet by the SB if we are behind.

So, our raise isn't really for much value. We are risking one more BB to try to win one more big bet, when half the time it will end up costing use two big bets, and half the time we will only win one more big bet. Where, if we only called, we will get that extra big bet half the time at no added risk.

We would have to be ahead about 2/3 of the time to raise for value due to the posibility of getting 3-bet.

Depending on your assumptions and reads of the two oppoenents, either play may end up being a wash, but only calling is probably a more reliable and less volatile path.

Just my two cents, but I'm definitely only calling....
Good analysis.


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NWNewell
Old 12-07-2006, 05:48 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Good analysis.
Thanks, I mostly just regurgitated what you said in a more longwinded post. lol...

But while I agreed with what you said, I wanted to elaborate my thoughts a little more to see if my thought process was on the right track. I've been playing like crap of late so I'm questioning and second guessing myself a lot lately.

Obviously, your response lets me know that I am... So, thanks!
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bigspenda73
Old 12-07-2006, 06:49 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 I just always thought hoping for overcalls involved a larger field and holding the practical nuts.
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bigspenda73
Old 12-07-2006, 06:52 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 Edit: double post
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-07-2006, 08:19 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I just always thought hoping for overcalls involved a larger field and holding the practical nuts.
A set on this board is the practical nuts. The field just has to be more than 2 (obv). If this was HU I may raise the river though.


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bigspenda73
Old 12-07-2006, 08:52 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Im not arguing with anyone's analysis here, but for reference here are the six criteria SSHE lists for 'going' for overcalls:

1. There are several players to act behind you
2. Those players are loose and unsophisticated
3. Your hand is strong
4. The pot is not big
5. The bettor may have you beaten
6. The bettor may be bluffing

After I analyze this hand more I have come to this conclusion:
THIS IS NOT EVEN ABOUT OVERCALLS

You didn't raise b/c you thought you were beat, you weren't calling hoping to suck the player behind you into calling. You were worried someone backed into a flush and therefore you just called. I don't think this situation is applicable to overcalls at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
If this was HU I may raise the river though.
every day of the week I hope
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-07-2006, 09:34 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Well, it meets criteria 2-6, but to say its not about overcalls at all is an understatement. It is true that if you are ahead, you don't want to knock the guy out behind you. But I agree it is more about not reopening the betting than going for the overcall..


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bigspenda73
Old 12-08-2006, 06:43 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 Yea, this is more about using the excuse of hoping for overcalls to cover up the fact that the river donk scared you.
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NWNewell
Old 12-08-2006, 12:41 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Yea, this is more about using the excuse of hoping for overcalls to cover up the fact that the river donk scared you.
I wouldn't call it an excuse to cover up being scared.

I would call it a prudent desicion due to overcall possibilities and new information from your opponent possible holdings. It is up to your read on your opponents to tell you how big these possibilities are. But I would want a very good read in my favor to raise it.
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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