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Chopper

07-04-2008, 03:13 PM Post subject: generic ability question..

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

this has been asked a gillion times before, but post UIGEA, where do we notice the games getting tougher for a moderately winning player?

NL seems to have dropped a level. used to be that 200NL was where the games got noticeably tougher. now, it seems that 100NL gives people more trouble...and it only gets tougher from there.

it seems to me that limit games are fairly soft all over, but the games, in general, start killing winrates at 1/2. is that about right? is it 2/4?

i think they all suck (not that i can kill them) up to .50/1, where the games get noticeably more aggressive, but still suck.

again, its largely arbitrary, but what should you expect at .50/1 to consider yourself a winner and ready to move up? 3+? less? and, what should one be looking for at 1/2?

seems a lot of limit players are only looking for "anything positive." doesnt that set the bar WAY too low? if we assume that a 1 is good, isnt that, psychologically, self-defeatist?

please elaborate, if possible.

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asdpikas

07-04-2008, 04:58 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

-whats UIGEA?

-One of the big differences i see at Party from .5/1 to 1/2 is less maniacs at 1/2
-at 1/2 semibluffs start to work a bit more, but still a lot of stations around

Still, for me, beating 1/2 wasn't sooo hard coming from .5/1. One thing is true, i did is start selecting tables, and taking more notes. Table selection in .5/1 is not really an issue, but at 1/2 you need to start avoiding some of the good regs and looking for the fish.

2/4 is where i have really started to see "good" play overall, but still, it's all a curve so i wouldn't be comfortable saying that the step is bigger from 1/2 to 2/4 than from .5/1 to 1/2. It's progressive, and i guess a person just needs to be able to adapt.

For moving up, i think 2-3BB/100 over 100k hands is as good a threshold as any, but a big sample, confidence, and the correct bankroll are essential.

Any other thoughts? Socal? Korn?

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euphoricism

07-04-2008, 06:53 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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The last I saw of 2/4 and 3/6, the play was fantastically terrible. I think the games have kind of gone in a circle. Most of the sharks have left.

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KoRnholio

07-04-2008, 08:48 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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2/4 full ring on Crypto is still a rock fest because of the insane bonus+rakeback they offer. Although the full ring 2/4 barely gets going anymore.

Elsewhere I would say 1/2 is still super donk, 2/4 and 3/6 less so, but still decent games.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Chopper

07-04-2008, 09:14 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

The last I saw of 2/4 and 3/6, the play was fantastically terrible. I think the games have kind of gone in a circle. Most of the sharks have left.

then why are we still shorting, euph? (btw, i shorted a bit last week, and really F'd some mothers up. quite fun)

shouldnt you be back on the LHE tables by now? or did you just burn out for good?

rest, so apparently there isnt much to fear until 2/4? ty.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

socal1111

07-05-2008, 07:31 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 191

This is a tough one for me, personally, because I started live, so specific stats was not how I learned to move up.

I can only speak about FT, because when I do play online, thats where I play. I only play 6max. 2/4- 8/16 is weak, IMO. I noticed a bigger difference at 15/30.... 30/60 is crazy good.

You sound like you have a very solid foundation of limit. I was always told (by my mentors) to get out of the small games as fast as humanly possible. I based my move-up on BR and "feel." I know that's not how most online players are doing it, as they rely on strict BB/100 thru (X) hands.

Your bottom line will never lie-- you'll always know whether you're winning or losing, but... how do you FEEL during the game? Stats can never measure your comfort level. I always advocate "taking shots," as long as it doesn't significantly hurt your BR. You may be surprised at how well you do.

Stats can definitely be helpful, but they can't paint the whole picture.

"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle

euphoricism

07-06-2008, 01:57 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

The last I saw of 2/4 and 3/6, the play was fantastically terrible. I think the games have kind of gone in a circle. Most of the sharks have left.

I don't short anymore. While obscenely profitable, and insanely easy, the variance is just gut wrenching. I don't play LHE now for a whole host of reasons. Some of which are A) lower winrate B) oppressive rake structure C) relative skill level between novice and expert D) can't stomach the variance E) I'm finally getting really good at NL.

socal1111

07-06-2008, 05:11 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 191

"Relative skill level between novice and expert???"

There's HUGE difference between the good and bad, it just takes longer to show. Expert LHE play is difficult to obtain, mostly because the "expert" plays are very, very subtle.

Limit is definitely a grind, but that's why I love it sooo much-- because I know most of my opponents hate it. They (as you said) want the quick, big win.

"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle

Chopper

07-06-2008, 02:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

another reason to prefer LHE, imo, is because the "action junkies" that are GOOD at NL will never come over here and take my fish.

i think the growth curve for limit is higher/longer than NL. we can all flop the nuts and shove our chips in the middle, or buy a hand by bluff-shoving. but, we cant all finesse value from 2nd pair, or realize on a flop our TPMK is not going to be any good by the river. and, most importantly, very few of us can tell WHEN these situations are profitable and when they aren't.

i, personally, dont have the balls for NL anymore. 98% of my bankroll came from NL games, and that's a little scary, but i have turned into a nitty, predictable player that just gets picked apart little by little.

LHE provides me the mentality of "fire that 3rd barrel, its only one more bet...who cares if he calls it, its one more bet." while that leads to spew in the early days, once tempered, it's a pretty good weapon to have.

i could NEVER pull the trigger on a $50 bluff at a NL table. but, i can easily pull it on a 100/200 table, if the situation warrants. its the betting structures that fit my personality a bit more naturally. and, although i should be working on the NL aspect of my game, i feel that its just easier right now to play to MY strengths and worry about NL stuff some other day.

ps...and, i still love to short-stack and go south on some of the NL players that think their shit dont stink. but, only on occasion.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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