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Hate
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01-31-2006, 08:09 PM
Post subject: General LHE SH strategy: Playing draws
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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I have a few issues with playing draws in 6max. In full ring, with a flush draw or an OESD, if given the opportunity I will raise the flop, and if i get to the turn UI, I usually either have odds to bet(when checked to me) for value or to raise.
Now, in 6max I'm not exactly sure if it's like this.
Consider this hand
PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , Q . CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, CO calls, SB calls.
Flop: (8 SB) 5 , 8 , J (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, CO folds, SB calls, Hero calls.
Turn: (7 BB) 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, SB calls.
River: (13 BB) 6 (3 players)
Final Pot: 13 BB
On the flop I bet out with my 2 overcards + nut FD, then on the turn I check the 7 BB pot, UTG bets and SB calls giving me 9-1 odds on calling which is double what I need for the FD (considering at least one more BB will be called on the river) and adding the extra value of the 2 overcards I have, I decided to raise.
Is this correct?
What about the similar situation but having midsuited connectors, flopping OESD in LP, raising the flop, and having the turned checked to me with 5-7BB. Do I take the free card here or bet out? I usually just bet out, but a post of Fnord's outlying nOOb mistakes specified raising the flop with an OESD and semi-bluffing the turn anyway. Is this the same thing?
Very interested to hear your opinions.
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3-bet the flop!
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I tend to just check/call that turn. Youre out of position - what happens when you miss your river? Further, with the SB coming along, youve got to think he's on a draw too - you might have less outs than you think.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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i cap flop
why not just check-call the turn? what does it mean to bet "for value" UI? I don't think UTG is drawing.
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Hate
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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Bet for value is a bet made when the odds of the pot are great enough compared to the odds of you making your hand by the river that by betting you are still winning money in the long run
(approximately worded)
BTW, FWIW UTG folded to a 3bet on the river after initially calling one bet and the other lad had the K high flush. So, no, he wasn't drawing
"I tend to just check/call that turn. Youre out of position - what happens when you miss your river?"
When I miss my river COMPLETELY, I'm content that I put my money in with correct odds and that in the long run I will win by completing my flush (evidently I check fold the river).
When I miss my flush and river TP, I probably check-call one bet, maybe even bet/call or CR depending on the players involved
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I would 3bet the flop if and only if you think your Q or A is good here if you were to hit. Otherwise, you are just adding to your variance.
The turn raise is spewage.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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I like reraising the flop a lot more than I like raising the turn.
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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I would 3 bet the flop only if I had position on the next street for a free card play OR I was sure my A and Q were outs as well... So really I don't know how much value you gain OOP by 3beating the flop...
On the turn that c/r is a spew, I’m sorry were you going for the free 6th street card OOP or what? It's sure as hell not for value so why are you doing it... the flop is the place to build a pot like this not the turn...
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I would have 3 bet the flop. I disagree with your turn play. I would either check call or if you want to be the aggressive i would have lead out with a bet. Can't really see the value in check raising.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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If you are in position, I don't mind a raise on the turn as much, but a CR here out of position isn't that flash.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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I think the reason they are all saying that the Turn Bet/Raise is spewage, is because of your odds of hitting.
Remember, on the flop for a SB, you're 9 outs two times to hit, which is right around 38%. So betting and raising here when you have overlay only requires you to have 2 other people in the hand to make it a +EV play.
At the turn, you're only 9 outs once to hit your hand, AND the size of your bet has been doubled. All of a sudden you hit right around 19% of the time, Now, in order to gain overlay, you need to be 1 of 6 people in the hand.
You should only bet and raise in drawing position when you have LIVE overlay. People in the hand that don't look like they are going to fold for another bet. Which means you need to be in position, and 5 people before you called a single bet, you don't have that luxury.
Remember, your odds change as you go through the hand. The turn represents a 400% swing in the odds-to-money situation in your hand. Not only did the cost to see your hand through just double, but the number of winning outs you had dropped by exactly half since you missed your draw. Very rarely when you see a 400% swing in odds to money, will you be justified trying to pad the pot.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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Hate
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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I understand I'm wrong but can someone please explain it mathematically because I don't get that part.
I'm getting 9-1 on a call on the turn, yes? (9 big bets). If I raise, that goes down to 4.5-1 which is a bit worse than the 5-1 against me rivering the flush. Seeing as I don't see UTG capping here, the calls get me 6.5-1 plus the implied odds WHEN I hit my hand and the decent number of times I river TPTK or TPGK and take it down for one more bet.
Seeing as I would be getting 6.5-1 on the turn for a 5-1 draw(disconsidering the overcards), why does it matter than i'm OOP? YES, i WOULD prefer to have position and raise the possible UTG bet, but then SB wouldn't call except with the second nuts, and UTG might/might not fold, but in this OOP situation the pot odds/bet amount is in my favour
There has to be a flaw in my math here , or you guys wouldn't be saying i'm wrong...but where is it?
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krimson
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 108
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hate
There has to be a flaw in my math here , or you guys wouldn't be saying i'm wrong...but where is it?
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The pot odds help you decide whether it is better to call or fold. When you are considerig whether to raise or call you ignore the money already in the pot and instead look at how much you expect to get back from the extra bets that go in because of your raise. With one card to come you are about 1/5 to hit your flush, so you would need 4 others to call your raise for it to be break-even compared with calling.
What your calculation of the "6.5-1 pot odds for raising" shows is that raising is better than folding. But calling is even better.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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[removed because I didn't see krimson's post before posting this, and my post just is just confusing compared to his clear explanation]
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by krimson
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hate
There has to be a flaw in my math here , or you guys wouldn't be saying i'm wrong...but where is it?
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The pot odds help you decide whether it is better to call or fold. When you are considerig whether to raise or call you ignore the money already in the pot and instead look at how much you expect to get back from the extra bets that go in because of your raise. With one card to come you are about 1/5 to hit your flush, so you would need 4 others to call your raise for it to be break-even compared with calling.
What your calculation of the "6.5-1 pot odds for raising" shows is that raising is better than folding. But calling is even better.
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^This is a great explanation.^
You call/fold depending on the odds laid to you by the pot. You are getting 9 to 1 on a 4 to 1 shot, so you are clearly not folding.
You bet/raise based only on the equity you have on that specific street. (including fold equity)
Since you are not getting your opponents to fold (barring some miracle)
-and you have only about 20% equity (more if your overcards are good)
-but you are putting in 33% of the money (on the turn)
=>a call is better than a raise.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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Hate
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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Oh...now I see.
I also don't see how the hell I missed that explanation as I did read all the posts.
Meh, cheers guys. Major leak plugged.
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relayer
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by krimson
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hate
There has to be a flaw in my math here , or you guys wouldn't be saying i'm wrong...but where is it?
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The pot odds help you decide whether it is better to call or fold. When you are considerig whether to raise or call you ignore the money already in the pot and instead look at how much you expect to get back from the extra bets that go in because of your raise. With one card to come you are about 1/5 to hit your flush, so you would need 4 others to call your raise for it to be break-even compared with calling.
What your calculation of the "6.5-1 pot odds for raising" shows is that raising is better than folding. But calling is even better.
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^This is a great explanation.^
You call/fold depending on the odds laid to you by the pot. You are getting 9 to 1 on a 4 to 1 shot, so you are clearly not folding.
You bet/raise based only on the equity you have on that specific street. (including fold equity)
Since you are not getting your opponents to fold (barring some miracle)
-and you have only about 20% equity (more if your overcards are good)
-but you are putting in 33% of the money (on the turn)
=>a call is better than a raise.
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demi: this is very helpful. The one concept that remains unclear (despite all the books and posts here on the point) is how do you calculate the 20% equity value in this case? I'm lost...
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Hate
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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well, 9 cards out of 46 = 5-1 against = 20% equity.
No?
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relayer
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
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Duh...I feel very stupid...
Thank you...
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stingo0
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 33
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what is this turn raise is about? What if it is 3 bet to you and you of course miss the river or hit you Q to lose to 2 pair or a set?
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Ahh, wasn't all this just explained?
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