www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

General Ideas (long winded)

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

pokerfanatic

04-01-2007, 10:41 PM Post subject: General Ideas (long winded)

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

A post got me thinking about a general limit concept... (link removed by PokerFanatic)

i was thinking if you are new to a game, and you can close the action with you play, is checking instead of betting really all that horrid if the pot is not multi way (i'm talking mostly HU here maybe at the most 3 handed post flop)...

sure checking doesn't give you any extra info about what he could have but if the player is say a tagg for example he could easily c/r you... and now you are left wondering what is going on...

now if you get a player that can put you on a hand range and c/r the turn on you as a bluff this spot becomes even worse...

Of course you have to recall that you are new to THIS type of game to begin with and don't know any sort of "standard lines" for a range of hands... so in a way you have no reads...

Thus I feel given if you don't have that good of reads at a game then checking and closing the action could in some situations not be horrid... the cases I think it might not be good to do is if it’s a draw heavy board, or your hand is probably best right now, but it’s extremely vulnerable. If anyone wants an example of what I’m thinking I’ll try to provide one.

Recall you don't know much about the style of poker you playing... let’s use Omaha or something for an example... I’m not sure how many people here know how to read hands of Omaha well, but substitute Omaha with a game that you don't know about...

This is kind of a general topic right now we can apply to limit specifically after we get some opinions about it out there…

As for if the player tends to be loose passive I don’t think that a check is right, it just depends on a read most the time wither to bet a passive player or check closing the action for the round… It’s the Argo ones lose or tight that can put you in some weird spots…

I don’t know; let’s hear what everyone thinks…

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

|~|ypermegachi

04-01-2007, 11:50 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

i'm not sure i understand...

you say that without reads in a new game being passive and checking is bad. but once you have a read that the other person is passive you should be betting? how would a new player have an accurate read?

pokerfanatic

04-02-2007, 01:18 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

no no i meant that checking when closing the action could not be THAT bad...

That other post just got me thinking about the idea of checking to close action I’ll remove that link if it makes things confusing...

I’m just debating if you are new to the style you are playing if you are sitting on a marginal hand if checking is really that bad given Argo players could and will put you in some weird spots if you don't have good reading ability...

it's a theory of how to play marginal spots sort of like the link I had up correctly without knowing specific reads or lines of that style of game...

here's a good example from PLO I guess… given we are talking about limit this might not apply AS much as it would to PL or NL but still can save bets or lose you bets in the long run so I’m trying to clear up the concept here…

you’re HU on the button, you hold JJ77 the board flops 10s8s7x you have no FD, the Turn is a 2x... board Ts8s7x2x, the player you are against is loose Argo... you have no real good reading skills in PLO, if you bet and he c/r you pot you're in a real tough spot... so if you check here closing the action is it really that bad of a play?

So when dealing with limit sure I guess you could bet and if you get5 raised call down for 3bb extra, but what if we want to see a SD for cheaper then check and call the river spending 1bb... of course this is the thing if you are ahead you miss out on 2bb extra, but if you're behind you save 2bb... so what's the right play if you are not conferrable with your reads?

If it's still confusing I’ll try to clear it up as much as possible just tell me where I’m falling short in my explanation.

|~|ypermegachi

04-02-2007, 01:49 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

i don't think you're gonna succeed generalizing this concept across multiple games.

with a mediocre hand, HU you can always guarantee you won't lose more than 2.5 BB in limit after the flop. this is not the case in NL/PL games.

in the example you gave, checking doesn't mean villain will not open-pot the next street. hero is still in a tough spot.

NWNewell

04-02-2007, 02:41 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

I can agree with this concept. For example:

If you are new to poker, then you are probably playing at lower limits. And you are probably playing against weaker competition. Playing against poor players presents a problem and a benefit.

The problem is that it is often difficult to put them on a hand because they often have strange, illogical betting patterns. So, getting good reads is difficult for even decent players, let alone someone new to the game.

The benefit is that because they play poorly and often times illogically, there are plenty of very profitable situations.

So, because of this problem and benefit, I don't have any problem with newbies checking behind in uncertain and marginal situations.

Especially because at the lower stakes that newbies should typically be playing at, they don't have to push every minuet edge to turn a profit. Also, typically newbies will not be able to consistently distinguish between what marginal situations are slightly positive or slightly negative (hell, even decent players struggle with that... that's why we are all here). By advising them to check behind in shaky situations (or even just calling when it could be correct to raise), you will do more to reduce the newbies variance and volatility. And that very well may be better for a newbie that what he might give up in win rate.

So, I would support advising a newbie at low limit (loose)games to check behind in shaky situations and wait to push the obviously +EV situations (there will more than likely be plenty of them at the lower limits).

And hopefully, as he moves up through the ranks he will be able to slowly but surely begin to distinguish what marginal situations are profitable and what are not.... and it turn start checking behind less and less, and increasing his aggression more and more.

But obviously, even if the "hero" is a newbie... if he is playing 3/6 limit online, he is going to have a hard time turning a profit because most of the time at these stakes you need to take advantage of your +EV situations whenever possible, regardless of how small, or you will have a hard time turning a profit.

But for newbies in "soft" games, I can get on board with this.

Man, that was a long winded way of saying "I think your idea has merit." lol...

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

euphoricism

04-02-2007, 09:47 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Unless I'm misreading, I think we're saying, in an incredibly needlessly verbose way:

Checking behind on the turn in FRLHE in a HU situation will rarely, if ever, be a horrible play.

To which I agree. It may not be optimal, but I can't think of a situation that occurs in practice where it is most definitely "awful".

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

NWNewell

04-02-2007, 11:06 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Well, some would say when you combine the fact you are giving away a free card, in high likelihood, to a weaker hand and not pushing your marginal edge, that is terrible.

And in tougher games, I wouldn't disagree too much. So this wouldn't be the kind of thing to encourage.

But at for newbies in softer games, not only would I say it is less of an error, but I would even lean towards encouraging it.

And I think that is all we are really talking about. A slightly different dynamic that changes a decision from less than desireable to possibly favorable.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

pokerfanatic

04-02-2007, 11:47 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Ohh I just think that I have heard so many people say that checking in any situation where you possibly have the best hand that's not on a draw heavy board and it's not very vulnerable in limit is completely wrong...

I just thought that possibly if you are not a strong limit player that you could theoretically make this play and it not be too horrid if you think that there are 1 or more players that are in the hand that could and will put you in tough spots constantly playing marginal hands...

Just figured I’d toss up the idea a little bit, see what I could get out of it... it's kind of an abstract thing to think about when it comes to limit only because as Hyper mentioned at most you lose is 2.5bb… yea 0.25bb or even 2.5bb might not seem that big a deal but I’m going to illustrate my thoughts to another level below using 0.25bb only per hand not even 2.5bb…

This is my thing with the limit games getting tougher if you can save or gain even 0.25bb then it's going to make a difference...

Say you save 0.25bb over 10,000 hands and get an extra 0.25bb another 5000 hands... lets say you are playing 0.25/0.5 even... correct my math if it's wrong but this is what I’m thinking...

(0.25bb)*($0.50) = $0.125
Amount saved: 10,000*0.125 = 1250
Amount Gained: 5000*0.125 = 625...
That comes to 1875!!! Over 15k hands...

At 0.25/0.50 where it might not seem like a big deal at the time to lose like $0.125 multiply the issue by a huge number reflecting a longer run of time... and it becomes a huge deal...

Run the math for 100k hands, I mean you see my point that it might not seem like a big deal but then again, debating over 0.25bb on playing a hand bettor is not as idiotic as it sounds…

euphoricism

04-03-2007, 12:20 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Not if ...
A) Being in a tougher game encourages more checkraises against your one pair (or weaker!) hands forcing you to either call checkraises with weak holdings or fold the winner too often. Both are huge winrate killers.
B) Villain will fold to most bets on the turn unless he has an already showdown-worthy hand anyway
C) checking through the turn will encourage an auto river bluff/semibluff/he-thinks-he-has-the-best-hand bet.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

pokerfanatic

04-03-2007, 01:39 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Not if ...
A) Being in a tougher game encourages more check raises against your one pair (or weaker!) hands forcing you to either call check raises with weak holdings or fold the winner too often. Both are huge win rate killers.
B) Villain will fold to most bets on the turn unless he has an already showdown-worthy hand anyway
C) checking through the turn will encourage an auto river bluff/semibluff/he-thinks-he-has-the-best-hand bet.

eupho I think I was stating and talking about players that are NEW to limit, not players that have been playing and know how to read the information well given any sort of action after their bet...

Here are the problems with your 3 things... I said HU or 3 handed...

A) You are correct here; having to call a c/r or fold the loser is a horrid win rate killer regardless of the player you are against...

B) you are assuming that the "villain" actually plays semi decently, where in this concept was trying to keep reads to a min or none... it would also depend on the limit we would be talking about and i was talking in genial, sure you'll see less tricky players at 0.25/0.50 HOWEVER you will also see some real fucking idiots at 100/200 as well at times... so i mean all limits have both ends of the spectrum... you could almost can think this as one of the first hands you have played, you have no PT, and no HUD of any kind, hell you could think of this as a live hand if you wanted...

C) Again you are assuming the player/s in the pot are Argo enough to fire a barrel on the river with air or bottom pair... if we have nothing to tell us how these players typically play how would we be able to come to that conclusion?

Here is what I’m thinking… it kind of hard for us to grasp the idea because we have been round the block with limit again and again, online players are also players that are what I called spoiled, we have come up using PT, and HUDs like a crutch… having reads at our finger tips before we even play a single hand… with out these things I think a lot of us would be in the dark trying to read a players hand range… so lets try to detach assumptions and reads if at all possible to try and come up with a solution where in the long run could be correct…

Of course as everything it might only be correct in particular situations given the board, but in those cases it’s obvious you would bet, boards that have a FD, SD, you have say 77 on a 5 high board your hands wide open things like that is a bet obv… it’s the sticky ones that even we can struggle with, given we have reads, personally I think if I was new I wouldn’t find myself in those spots but if you do… that’s the question…

euphoricism

04-03-2007, 01:43 AM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Meh. Dont checkthrough turns in live games. They dont bet the river.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

pokerfanatic

04-03-2007, 06:05 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Meh. Dont checkthrough turns in live games. They dont bet the river.

haha yet again you make more assumptions... all I said about a live hand was that you could think of it that way based on the fact you wouldn't have a single thing to help you read the hand easier... other then the
whooping 2-7 hands about that you have seen them play and IMO you can’t draw a single conclusion from a persons play based on that…

lets say you have seen me play 5 hands 4 out of the 5 I have raised pf and bet down only showed down 1 hand where I had TPMK… the 5th I mucked PF… are you going to assume that I’m loose Argo off that? I would hope not because the one hand you saw was my most marginal… AA, AKs, TT, A9o you saw A9o, I guess what I’m saying is anyone even a tag can appear like a maniac…

They do bet the river a lot if you play 10/20 at the river boat I used to go to... I’m not trying to put a limit stipulation on this… I just felt a genial topic should go in the small stakes board since not many people bother to read the other topic...

Look I’m playing devils advocate here to try to pull as much info as possible and also put a lot of info I have on my mind about it out there to help people…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
Here is what I think about the situation… I have never played a single hand of limit poker before, however I have been a semi decent winning NL Texas Hold’em player… I find myself in a situation where I hold 99 on the button, I had raised PF got 2 callers, given this is my 3rd hand of the game after posting the blinds, I’m not running PT/ a HUD, I don’t have any reads… flop comes 26Q rainbow… it’s checked to me I bet and both call… turn comes down a T… both players check to you… what’s your play?

In my opinion I could sort of guess what they might have and think I’m behind and have an argument for a check here, on the other hand I could be ahead still and my hand is wide open right now so a bet gains info on where I am approximately, however I am not a limit player what the hell does a c/r mean he have? What if they both just call what does this mean? If one calls then what?

I think it’s hard for someone that has played a lot of limit to grasp this concept that you are NEW… you don’t know what standard lines typically translate into… IMO you can’t teach a new person by going “raise the turn” and that’s it… they will be wondering why the hell should I raise the turn there again?

You can’t teach someone even the ones that have other poker experience and are already winning players in that type game “just do this” I put myself in there shoes and go “hmm wonder why that is the right play? Is this bull shit or is it true? He didn’t give any explanation or thought to his play… I have no idea…”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
This post was only to debate about a line for NEW PLAYERS ONLY… in marginal situations, granted if you are new you probably should play less hands, nut pedal I guess till you can figure out post flop plays correctly…

HOWEVER, it’s a concept where I think it was buggin me to hear consistently people go “bet the turn”, ok well you are on the button sure you might be able to muck if you get c/r but is a new player going to know that? So sure a majority the time checking would be considered “weak” I would agree, that’s not the debate… the debate is how “horrid” is a check behind to close the action?

I guess my question is on average how much would it affect the win rate of any player if they had no idea where they were in a hand for sure, to check behind closing out the action for that round… AS SSH SAYS “You probably shouldn’t bet if you don’t know how to react to a raise.” So if you though that into the mix of things this “little” genial idea of mine could easily be supported.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
Note: I put little in quotations only because I think this thing went from a small idea to an in-deep one in a hurry. I will apologize to the people that have a hard time following this… if you have any questions please post them in here, this is more for you all anyways have a nice chance to pick the brains of people about more genial ideas then specific hands…

NWNewell

04-03-2007, 01:07 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

And you are right, if you are in tougher games that do a lot of check raising, it would be correct to play the turn more cautiously. But I don't agree with doing so as a general rule. Games can be tough for other reasons, such as being straight forward TAG, and not a tricky c/r style of game. If that is the case, then giving up value bets on the turn will make it difficult to turn a profit. This determination is a situational decision that requires some ability to evaluate the table style and pick up on your opponents tendencies. Not exactly something I expect a newbie to do well. And because softer games that newbies play in provide plenty of other profitable situations, you can check behind more often without sacrificing as big of a percentage of your potential win rate as you would in a tougher game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Not if ...
B) Villain will fold to most bets on the turn unless he has an already showdown-worthy hand anyway

I don't completely agree, the are plenty of situations were there is a sizable gap between what hands should be folded, and what hands should be c/r. The can be a lot of holdings were I can see players c/c'ing down a PFR that keeps the lead (i.e. Top Pair with a mediocre kicker on a coordinated board)

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Not if ...
C) checking through the turn will encourage an auto river bluff/semibluff/he-thinks-he-has-the-best-hand bet.

Not really. What about draws that missed. I love when someone gives me a free turn card on the river. And I'm not semi-bluffing the river very often with missed draws. And as far as live play goes, lower limits are usually pretty pass (even as high as $6/$12 in my experience) and you won't see to many river bluffs.

Personally, at tougher games I think you do need to bet the turn more often than not, even if you are unsure (and correctly identify when you shouldn't because of player tendencies to c/r) as a general rule. Otherwise you are giving up a pretty big percentage of your winrate by checking through the turn too often.

But for newbies at lower stakes, it is difficult for them to correctly identify possible c/r situational. And since checking through more often won't give up as big of percentage of their win rate (because of so many other mistakes opp will make at these stakes), I would lean towards check the turn when unsure about your hand more often than not.

i.e. AcTc on a Ah9s8h(6h) board. In low limit games I have no problem with newbies checking the turn most of the time. In tougher games, I think we give up way too much by not betting the turn most of the time.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

euphoricism

04-04-2007, 04:06 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Quote:

i.e. AcTc on a Ah9s8h(6h) board. In low limit games I have no problem with newbies checking the turn most of the time. In tougher games, I think we give up way too much by not betting the turn most of the time.

I think this is entirely and completely backwards. In low limits I'm betting the turn and checking through the river. In higher limits im checking through the turn and autocalling the river.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

pokerfanatic

04-05-2007, 08:18 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Quote:

i.e. AcTc on a Ah9s8h(6h) board. In low limit games I have no problem with newbie’s checking the turn most of the time. In tougher games, I think we give up way too much by not betting the turn most of the time.

I think this is entirely and completely backwards. In low limits I'm betting the turn and checking through the river. In higher limits I’m checking through the turn and auto calling the river.

Eupho lets put it in this situation a new player is sitting in a 0.25/0.50 6m game I’m 2 seats to there left in the BB, it's folded to them they raise... sb folds I call... flop comes down T25 rainbow, new player holds A5s, I check you bet I call... Turn is a 7x puts a draw out to both SD and FD however you don't have the FD, I check... you bet... then BAMB I C/R...
what's your play? You have no read on me at all… All you know is my line this hand and I mucked the other 2 hands you saw me play...

(You can't put yourself in that spot eupho... your dumb ass would call down because it was me... You would do this because you know that I’m that type player that COULD pull this line on AIR... if I thought my opponent was weak...)

So you know nothing about me at all, this is your 3rd hand at the table however I have stats on you as you sat down because I data mine the limits... i know you could be steeling in this spot, you could have AK-A60/s and A5-2s, KQ-K9, QJ-Q9, AA-22, and some other random Face card and x …that are sooted you might open more for a steal...

My thinking if I’m bluffing:
You might fold AK-AJ if you have nothing (you don't have odds to a 6 outer so you SHOULD), You fold A9-A6 w/ no draw, You might fold A5,A2(you don't have odds to draw at a GSD... pot folds 5:1 odds… You SHOULD fold A3 and A4... without the FD)...

You probably 3 bet any over pair AA-TT all probably 3 bet... same as 22, 55...

you would call a FD you have odds, and you probably call a T with a mid kicker... for sure, however if you call I know if I’m bluffing I’m beat and need to hit, but if you 3 bet I muck...

so in a since I just put you in a spot where no matter how you play this hand I’m going to know exactly what you are playing... I now can and will outplay you...

So this is where I have to ask...

Should you have checked behind on the turn seeing the river?
You have no idea that I play taggy, so it's not like you can say yes you'll river bluff here... or no because I might fold here as well...

Now if you KNOW how I play that's a totally different story... we all know how to play that hand against me if you know me... CAP IT, I’ll be holding the nuts every time : wink :

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:55 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

All Other (Limit) Poker

General Ideas (long winded)

Play for FREE and practice your game at...