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Funny little hands from today...

  
 
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Fnord
Old 04-16-2005, 08:28 AM     Post subject: Funny little hands from today... #1 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 7, 8. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J, 9, T (4 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 9 (4 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, SB calls.

River: (4 BB) Q (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 5 BB

Hand 2:

MP2 is loose/passive

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 8, 9.
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 7, 9, 8 (5 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, SB calls, Fnord raises, MP1 folds, MP2 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, Fnord caps, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 4 (4 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, MP2 raises, Button folds, SB calls, Fnord calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 5 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, MP2 bets, SB calls, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Hand 3:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with 7, A.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Fnord raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 6, Q, 3 (3 players)
BB bets, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB bets, MP3 raises, Fnord calls, BB 3-bets, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

River: (15.66 BB) 3 (3 players)
BB bets, MP3 raises, Fnord 3-bets, BB caps, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 27.66 BB

Hand 4:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q, Q.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) T, 5, J (6 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 8 (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

River: (14 BB) J (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Fnord calls, Button raises, SB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Hand 5:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with 7, 6. Fnord posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Fnord (poster) checks, 2 folds, Button calls, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Fnord calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) J, 7, 6 (5 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Fnord raises, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (10 BB) 8 (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 folds, Fnord calls, Button calls.

River: (13 BB) T (3 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 21 BB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Trikflow77
Old 04-16-2005, 11:24 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: What where you thinking here???????


Hand 2: With him limping and then gong nuts on the flop I am thinking set. I would call down turn and river, the turn lead is ok though.

Hand 3: I undestand you not raising for a free card fearing the 3 bet here. I play it the same and grind my teeth he doesnt have qq. With this board it would be tough to cap the river with AA KK so if it is a good player I think you lose..

Hand 4: i play it the same.


Hand 5: I dont like the river play at all. What are you going to get to fold on the river here? I know it is either raise or fold, but a straight is not going to fold, a flush will call, and the sb will not even fold 2 pair in this big pot. If this was a good thinking player, they might fold a small flush or straight if the pot was small, but its not, one bet will be called here. The way the hand played out if funny, but your did not pop the turn, so I would just let it go.
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Fnord
Old 04-16-2005, 11:32 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
Hand 1: What where you thinking here???????
c/r a strong but vulnerable hand on a board that probably hit someone on the flop, bet the turn after whiffing, fold a small pot when a bad card rivers. Looking back, I hate the river fold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
Hand 2: With him limping and then gong nuts on the flop I am thinking set. I would call down turn and river, the turn lead is ok though.
When he pops me on the turn I put him on a flopped straight, maybe set, maybe over-played top pair or better. Should have added that MP2 is loose/passive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
Hand 3: I undestand you not raising for a free card fearing the 3 bet here. I play it the same and grind my teeth he doesnt have qq. With this board it would be tough to cap the river with AA KK so if it is a good player I think you lose..
A 3-bet doesn't bother me, I have too much equity 3-way. Calling is the most profitable play here vs the SB's range of AA-TT/AK/AQ with a guy caught in between us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
Hand 5: I dont like the river play at all. What are you going to get to fold on the river here? I know it is either raise or fold, but a straight is not going to fold, a flush will call, and the sb will not even fold 2 pair in this big pot. If this was a good thinking player, they might fold a small flush or straight if the pot was small, but its not, one bet will be called here. The way the hand played out if funny, but your did not pop the turn, so I would just let it go.
Button's cold call on the flop looked like a J that refused to fold or a flush/straight draw to me. Hence, the turn call to see what he would do. In retrospect I'm tied to this pot pretty much anyway, so I may as well raise.

I put the SB on top pair or a big over-pair. Particularly with his stop'n go post-flop action. I figured I'd raise the scard card in hopes that the button folds a better hand and the SB didn't have a heart. Easy fold to a 3-bet, so the hand plays itself from there. SSH talks about this play and I've been looking for the right spot for it, I think the pot is big enough here to take a stab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Trikflow77
Old 04-16-2005, 10:12 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
A 3-bet doesn't bother me, I have too much equity 3-way. Calling is the most profitable play here vs the SB's range of AA-TT/AK/AQ with a guy caught in between us.
So you are saying that a free card play would not work?

Quote:
Button's cold call on the flop looked like a J that refused to fold or a flush/straight draw to me. Hence, the turn call to see what he would do. In retrospect I'm tied to this pot pretty much anyway, so I may as well raise.

I put the SB on top pair or a big over-pair. Particularly with his stop'n go post-flop action. I figured I'd raise the scard card in hopes that the button folds a better hand and the SB didn't have a heart. Easy fold to a 3-bet, so the hand plays itself from there. SSH talks about this play and I've been looking for the right spot for it, I think the pot is big enough here to take a stab.
Why call the turn bet here, I see this as a clear raise, if the button cc's the raise then you know he at least has a straight or a big heart. Since the SB hasnt let up even with the 4 straight and 4 flush on the board, I can see the raise because you didnt raise the turn, so you have little information, but this pot is 3 handed, what is the button hanging around with? The river fold is easy, I am not disputing that, I just think if you dont raise the turn, dont raise the river here, the pot is too big for someone to let go of a even average hand here. Yes this is a spot where you dont want overcallers, but I think you hand is too weak here to win the pot.
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Fnord
Old 04-16-2005, 10:20 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
Quote:
A 3-bet doesn't bother me, I have too much equity 3-way. Calling is the most profitable play here vs the SB's range of AA-TT/AK/AQ with a guy caught in between us.
So you are saying that a free card play would not work?
Yup.

Lets us assert:
o A 3-bet costs us money 3-way, capping costs us more money. Granted, not much but there is a small cost here and limit is all about little things. Even if it's close we would be feeding the variance beast.
o Checking behind on the turn tables our hand. We probably would end up betting the turn anyway if we think we have fold equity and/or to hide our hand.
o In today's game an overpair will quite often run a 3-bet and lead or stop'n go here.
o SB is likely to keep betting until it encounters resistance.
o Between the SB's pre-flop 3-bet range and MP3 we have very little chance of winning this one without showdown.
o If we hit an Ace we're either far ahead or far behind and maybe will pop it on the river to avoid a 3-bet from a bigger Ace.
o http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...sb=5&o=&fpart=

Disagree with any of these points?

Hence, I see us giving up implied odds by raising and not getting enough value in return. If you can rule out folding and raising then calling must be correct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Trikflow77
Old 04-16-2005, 10:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
I undestand you not raising for a free card fearing the 3 bet here.
This was my original quote.

Then you wrote

Quote:
A 3-bet doesn't bother me, I have too much equity 3-way
So I assumed there was another reason for just calling the flop here. I would not have raised the flop either, for fear of a 3 bet. I agree with you here, and was trying to figure out the 3 bet doesnt bother me statement. IF it didnt bother you, why not raise the flop. We are on the same page though, so it doenst matter.
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Fnord
Old 04-16-2005, 10:27 PM #7 (permalink)  
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If you're in the ballpark of 1 in 3 to win a 3-way pot a 3-bet doesn't bother you. However, without fold equity you're just spewing chips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Trikflow77
Old 04-16-2005, 10:32 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
However, without fold equity you're just spewing chips.
With The BB three bet, there really isnt any fold equity here, which is why I like the call.
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Demiparadigm
Old 04-18-2005, 06:52 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: call or raise the river. SB has a Q. The K would be a scarier card.

Hand 2: I could make an argument for calling the flop 3 bet and check calling down, but well played in general.

Hand 3: perfect. by not raising for a free card you got more bets in the pot when yo umade your hand, and saved bets in case you missed.

Hand 4: Outstanding lay down. call 1 bet, but the raise and call must have you beat. "a raiser may be bluffing, but a caller never is" -Sklansky

Hand 5: I like your explanation, but blah... I usually fold this on the river.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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