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pokerfanatic

04-29-2005, 10:08 PM Post subject: Fun Never Stops

#1 (permalink)

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: PKR is UTG with A

, A

. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
PKR raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 2

, 7

, 4

[color:#0000FF](4 players)[/color]
SB checks, BB bets, PKR raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) T

(3 players)
BB checks, PKR bets, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) A

(3 players)
BB checks, PKR bets, Button calls, BB raises, PKR 3-bets, Button folds, BB caps, PKR calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 3d 5d (straight, five high).
PKR has As Ac (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: BB wins 19.50 BB.

could you have put him on this hand the way it was played?

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euphoricism

04-29-2005, 10:36 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Owch, no, not much you can do there. He hit 2345 on the flop, and he's not going to lay that down EVER.

In a perfect world, he should have folded to that Preflop raise.

typical .5/1 :/

Demiparadigm

04-29-2005, 10:55 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

In a perfect world, he should have folded to that Preflop raise.

I don't fold this hand in the big blind getting 7 to 1 even if I know the raiser has a big pocket pair.

I would probably fold hands like AT, KJ since they can easily be dominated, but if they're s00ted, I'm calling with these too.

The more you fold pre flop, the easier it is to stay out of trouble, but you give up a lot of marginally profitable situations, which can make a big difference in the higher limits.

I also would have checkraised you with my crappy 53 on the flop, instead of betting out. The goal is to get more money in the pot, and players are more likely to fold calling 2 bets cold than one at a time.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

pokerfanatic

04-30-2005, 12:28 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

I don't fold this hand in the big blind getting 7 to 1 even if I know the raiser has a big pocket pair.

I’d like to see the math for this thought process, I raise UTG, sb calls that's 2bb to 1/2bb I’m not seeing how you have odds to play that preflop...

Quote:

I would probably fold hands like AT, KJ since they can easily be dominated, but if they're s00ted, I'm calling with these too.

AA doesn't have 35o dominated?

Quote:

The more you fold pre flop, the easier it is to stay out of trouble, but you give up a lot of marginally profitable situations, which can make a big difference in the higher limits.

This sounds like the type thinking the guys that feed other FTRs 3/6 games have when they play...

Quote:

I also would have check raised you with my crappy 53 on the flop, instead of betting out. The goal is to get more money in the pot, and players are more likely to fold calling 2 bets cold than one at a time.

you check raise me on the flop I’m coming back over the top and on the turn when you miss again I’m still coming over the top, I don't back off AA against a random blind hand too often, I’m sitting on a monster with the raged ass flop and I know it's a probability to be good...

I don't agree with any of what you are saying of playing that trash in the bb, you my friend sound like my ATM 80% of the time if you play this hand each time preflop... and even with the flop like the one shown I still win 76% of the time... and with the turn I’m still a 86.5% favorite to win the hand, so be my guest buddy play those rags all day long...

All in all my point is he had not the odds to play the hand the whole way, and by getting lucky once there that still doesn’t mean you are going to have a positive ev over the long run…

honsheung

04-30-2005, 01:21 AM Post subject: Re: Fun Never Stops

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 153

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: PKR is UTG with A

, A

. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
PKR raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 2

, 7

, 4

[color:#0000FF](4 players)[/color]
SB checks, BB bets, PKR raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) T

(3 players)
BB checks, PKR bets, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) A

(3 players)
BB checks, PKR bets, Button calls, BB raises, PKR 3-bets, Button folds, BB caps, PKR calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 3d 5d (straight, five high).
PKR has As Ac (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: BB wins 19.50 BB.

I will up him some kind of sets of or Ax two pair.
I will play exactly like you. That straight is just too obscure for me!

could you have put him on this hand the way it was played?

Demiparadigm

04-30-2005, 03:43 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

I’d like to see the math for this thought process, I raise UTG, sb calls that's 2bb to 1/2bb I’m not seeing how you have odds to play that preflop...

Quote:

preflop: PKR is UTG with A, A. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
PKR raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

your raise, button call, sb call = 2+2+2+ my bb(1) = 7
it costs me 1 sb to call, so I am getting 7 to 1 odds.

Quote:

AA doesn't have 35o dominated?

Quote:

BB has 3d 5d

It is 35 suited. (did you read the hand history, or just post on tilt?)
AA v 35s is 4 to 1.
Assuming you are a tight raiser and will only raise UTG with AA-JJ, AK and AQ,
There are 16 ways each to make either AK or AQ for a total of 32 hands
There are 6 ways each to make AA-JJ for a total of 24 hands
So, It is less likely that you have a pair.
AK v 35s is 2 to 1.

Why do I not have odds to call?

Quote:

Yep. I expect that. My goal is to get as much money in the pot while there are 4 players, since I am 2 to 1 to make my straight by the river.

Quote:

and even with the flop like the one shown I still win 76% of the time... and with the turn I’m still a 86.5% favorite to win the hand, so be my guest buddy play those rags all day long...

This is true IF you have AA, since 2 of my outs are in your hand. My pot equity is much larger if you have any other of your raising hands.

Quote:

This sounds like the type thinking the guys that feed other FTRs 3/6 games have when they play...

Quote:

I don't agree with any of what you are saying of playing that trash in the bb, you my friend sound like my ATM 80% of the time if you play this hand each time preflop...

I am not going to comment on which of us I tend to believe is a more profitable player, because that is not the type of person I am

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

|~|ypermegachi

04-30-2005, 05:22 AM

#7 (permalink)

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it doesn't matter if hand A dominates hand B.

if hand A wins 4 times, and loses 1 time, hand B is still profitable getting more than 4:1 to wager.

7:1 is pretty good odds for 53s, and considering it is 0.5/1 i say it's a good call. at higher limits you can probably make the case of folding.

but then again, watch a couple 15/30 games and you'll see people with 43s capping preflop.

honsheung

04-30-2005, 03:42 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 153

I　am afraid I am not used to that difficult of terminology of sth like 7:1.

I just want to know is the hand played wrongly, in simple words. If so, what is the alternative play?

Fnord

04-30-2005, 03:52 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

I don't fold this hand in the big blind getting 7 to 1 even if I know the raiser has a big pocket pair.

7:1 not g00t enough for 53s. It's a one gapper, won't make enough straights, has no high card power and you will never be on the winning end of flush over flush. The problem with baby flushes in limit is that you can't protect your hand against a re-draw to a bigger flush vs a single hole card.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

The more you fold pre flop, the easier it is to stay out of trouble, but you give up a lot of marginally profitable situations, which can make a big difference in the higher limits.

When the rake cuts into those thin margins less (instead of often flat out destroying them)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

I also would have checkraised you with my crappy 53 on the flop, instead of betting out. The goal is to get more money in the pot, and players are more likely to fold calling 2 bets cold than one at a time.

Really, how many callers do you need for your c/r to be +EV? Also consider that spooking a hand into check/call mode will cut into your implied odds. I like a check/call here. Check/raise when you hit, he won't see it comming. Win the max and lose the least, don't blindly jam 8 outers like a wanna-be TAgg donk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

honsheung

04-30-2005, 03:56 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 153

SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.
I am so stupid

Fnord

04-30-2005, 04:04 PM

#11 (permalink)

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13,002,438 games 65.125 secs 199,653 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 35.6492 % [ 00.35 00.01 ] { AA-88, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 2: 26.1644 % [ 00.25 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A9o, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 17.5759 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 20.6105 % [ 00.20 00.00 ] { 5d3d }

53s isn't doing much better than the random hand. Throw in rake and what a pain in the ass it's going to be to play a draw out of position and it's at best a marginal call.

http://teamfu.freeshell.org/poker_ha..._position.html

53s from the BB has an EV of -0.27. Folding has an EV of -0.50BB/hand. Hmm....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerfanatic

04-30-2005, 05:32 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

53s from the BB has an EV of -0.27. Folding has an EV of -0.50BB/hand. Hmm....

hmm well either way it's -ev, but how the hell would you save money by putting money in to play wit the hand that just sounds ass backwards, but if the ev chart is right... then I guess I can't fight the math...

Demiparadigm

01-05-2006, 03:13 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Bump...

I am feeling all nostalgic. This is the first of many times I got flamed by pfan.

Looking back, Now I am folding here (though 54s is still a call for me.)

The most interesting argument is whether to push a small flop edge with a check raise, or hope you hit on a big street to get a check raise in.
The problem with this raggy board is you are not guaranteed a turn bet if you hit your straight.

Would it be better to check/call and donk if you hit hoping to 3 bet?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

elipsesjeff

01-05-2006, 03:42 AM

#14 (permalink)

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I am calling here still if I'm the BB. It deesn't matter what stakes it is 7:1 is 7:1.

My stats, filtered for hands 97s, 86s, 75s, 64s, 53s, and 42s for limits 3/6 6max to 30/60 for more than 3 players seeing the flop, 50k hand sample.

Overall: .1 BB/Hand. over 65 instances.

Still small sample, but I think its still profitable if you can play it well post flop.

Also, I'm still check/raising this flop for value, you only need 1 caller to make this break even, 2 to make money (considering you don't put him exactly on AA). Throw in folding equity and an argument can be made for HU even.

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RiverMonkey

01-05-2006, 06:16 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

53s from the BB has an EV of -0.27. Folding has an EV of -0.50BB/hand. Hmm....

There is no math behind those numbers. The EV quoted in those tables is the actual BB earned per hand over a very large sample of real online games.

Fnord's right; you need to consider the size of the rake relative to the stakes you are playing. At lower stakes, where the rake is a larger percentage of the pot size, I think you are better off folding this hand before the flop. At higher stakes, you can probably play it for a small "profit" (i.e. less loss from the blinds) over the long run (esp. if you want to assign some value to advertising and unpredictability). However, the inevitability of choosing to play hands like this is higher variance.

To me, the choice between CR'ing that flop and check calling comes down to how much variance you want in your poker results. Same holds true for your decision to play or fold pre-flop. But 7:1 on your money is hard to pass up even with those cards.

In a strict EV sense I have to agree with Jeff that with that field, a CR on the flop earns you more in the long run (assuming you are pretty sure that you aren't going to be re-raised), but I'd often just check call it to reduce my variance. I think is a example of an opporunity where you can mix up your play. Of course, assuming your opponents aren't paying attention to your play, I'd probably lean towards the check-call line to reduce my variance.

pokerfanatic

01-05-2006, 08:51 PM

#16 (permalink)

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wow this baby is OLD!

elipsesjeff

01-05-2006, 09:50 PM

#17 (permalink)

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pwnt

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pokerfanatic

01-05-2006, 11:43 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

pwnt

yea no shit

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