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euphoricism

05-08-2007, 07:04 AM Post subject: Full ring B&M hand

#1 (permalink)

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You have A

. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps. Folds to you with ATo, you call. CO and BTN both call.

A

flop UTG bets out, folds to you. Theres two left to act (four players in the pot). Whats your move?

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Ragnar4

05-08-2007, 08:22 AM

#2 (permalink)

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so many limps. I don't think we can fold here.

5 sb going to the flop. Right now you have 5 outs to another ace, or a ten, assuming that the outs are clean. You also have a backdoor straight draw, which is worth another 1 out. So you can put your value on a bunch of dirty outs.

If you were to call, you would be hoping to hit the ten or the Ace, and that you aren't out-kicked. C/0 and Btn are probably playing with purely speculative hands. I don't like the call play.

I would raise. I don't think UTG, or UTG +1 would limp with AJ, or AQ, or AK. maybe little aces. But you also need to clean house behind you, giving the gutshots, and flush-draws the wrong price. If there is any re-raise action behind you, or the first player raises, consider letting go of the hand. Also if there's a call from any of the 2 yahoos behind you. Proceed with caution.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

KoRnholio

05-08-2007, 08:34 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Raise. Can't let anyone in behind you cheaply on that draw-heavy board. In a typical low limit B&M game you are very often holding the best hand here.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

jyms

05-08-2007, 08:36 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Right now, your behind AK, AQ, AJ and A9. With this many limpers you'll be behind an others that hit this flop, you'll never get the draws out or any other A that still can hit two cards for the second pair. I'm not so sure about limit but in NL AT is not the place to be in this position, but are you cgoing to want to hang around if they start capping streets with TPMK

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Ragnar4

05-08-2007, 10:05 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Sure you're behind all of those hands. But I think we can only reasonably put the early limpers on is A9. Only the tightest nits limp with AJ in a low stakes BnM game. No raise, you take all of those hands out of the equation. 99 is also a possibility. AA, or QQ would have come out firing in a limit game.

AT isn't exactly the worlds best limit hand, but the price was right. Really, from MP on, you're limping any two wheelhouse cards in a 3-5 person per flop BnM game (provided they aren't worth a raise).

If streets started getting capped I have a very hard time going to battle unless I have a set, or a draw to the nuts with 8 or more outs. Which is why I suggest a raise. If things get hairy, you can release for the price of 1 BB instead of going full bore all the way to the river.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

NWNewell

05-08-2007, 05:24 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Bang my leg of the table as punishment for limping into a multi-way pot with ATo from MP.

I do it on occasion because I feel like folding this spot is pretty nitty, but I rarely am fond of the post flop situations.

Which limits? (etc, etc) I'm guessing the BB checked the flop? With that said.....

Raise.

I want to define my hand right here, and then proceed cautiously from then on.

The price is right not to just give up the pot on the flop with 6:1 odds. But I think only calling leaves us too much in the dark and make sit too easy to push us out of the pot.

If everyone players behind me fold and it is only me and UTG, I'm probably checking/folding the turn and check/call the river.

If only one player behind me and UTG calls, I'm probably going to b/f a blank turn. And if it is down to HU on the river, probably c/c against a late position player, check/fold against UTG.

If more players than just UTG and one late position player see the turn. I'm pretty much lost. Would like to check and look for the door. I'm possibly behind and there are plenty of draws against me if I'm not.

Tough situation for me.... hence, why I would probably fold ATo in this spot a little more often than not.....

I mean, with three limpers and the big blind, late position players have great odds to limp with a wide range of hands. ATo ends up being pretty tough to play from MP post flop.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

euphoricism

05-09-2007, 12:52 AM

#7 (permalink)

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This hand was taken from TOP, which says its a clear fold. You cannot discourage draws, and your top pair mid kicker is rarely going to be best by the end of the hand. Your reverse implied odds are painfully bad.

I thought this was interesting because my first instinct was to raise as well.

FWIW, whose raising preflop? *raises hand*

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KoRnholio

05-09-2007, 01:14 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I still think raising is the right play from this point on. Assuming that the SB and BB are both in the pot, we can raise to give them odds of just 4.5:1 which should discourage people taking cards off with hands like T9 or KJ.

Quote:

FWIW, whose raising preflop? *raises hand*

Biggish unsuited cards (especially out of position/middle position) are awful to play in multiway pots. Plus based on most lower limit games a raise preflop will just bloat the pot when 3-5 people will call us anyways.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Ragnar4

05-09-2007, 03:01 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Lol. So I went to TOP, and found this example. I shit you not, in the margins I wrote this:

*See Notes

Go to First Notes page:

Page 43 * I disagree here. AK, AQ, AA, and QQ all raise preflop. By raising 1st positions bet you give all flush and straight draws terrible pot odds AND find out if position 1 has midpair, low pair or 99. (a true possibility). If any seat behind you re-raises then you can release the hand. Perhaps this is a no-limit example? Perhaps a max raise/small favorite conundrum (see page 16).

Lol. I wrote this two years ago when I first bought the book. Apparently I haven't gotten much better at poker in 2 years.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

bigspenda73

05-09-2007, 03:10 AM

#10 (permalink)

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HAH

CLEAR FOLD, so funny cuz I just read this like 5 minutes ago in TOP

euphoricism

05-09-2007, 05:55 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Do we really want T9 / KJ to fold?

Quote:

Plus based on most lower limit games a raise preflop will just bloat the pot when 3-5 people will call us anyways.

Heh yeah, I guess this is true.

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euphoricism

05-09-2007, 06:02 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ragnar

By raising 1st positions bet you give all flush and straight draws terrible pot odds ..

Not really.

2 limpers, I limp, 2 limp behind, bb checks (yeah i guess theres 5 people in pot. I was totally making up preflop) so theres 5.5sb.

UTG bets out so 6.5SB and 1sb to us. If we call were giving the guys on the draw 7.5:1, but if we raise were giving them 8.5:2 or 4.25:1 and they'd almost always be incorrect to fold.

There is nothing we can do to give anyone here a -EV play. And almost any turn or river card is a horrible card for us, so we need to fold.

Folding > Raising > Calling.

Incredibly interesting hand, and one of the hardest parts of playing SSFRLHE.

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mike4066

05-09-2007, 12:09 PM

#13 (permalink)

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-Raises hands...
btw, Reverse implied odds pwn me

NWNewell

05-09-2007, 12:44 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Your reverse implied odds are painfully bad.

Yeah, tough to give it up on the flop. But I guess you(sklansky) are probably right. On the rare times that we are pretty far head or that it holds up to SD, we probably are not winning much. But if we try to show this down, it is probably going to cost us too much when we lose.

Good example... of how I probably need to give more consideration and credit to reverse implied odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

FWIW, whose raising preflop? *raises hand*

For most FR Limit games, I don't really care to raise ATo from middle position in this spot either. With two limpers and the BB, if you raise, players behind you can still expect to get approximately 3.5:1 odds to cold call. I can see a lot of loose calls that would not be too much of a mistake in this spot (middle pairs, Axs, KQs-JTs, etc). And when we think about how loose most B&M games are preflop with little respect for raises, there could be a lot more calls from suited garbage, etc. My point being that raising might get you the button, but quite often you will not be in much better shape (with probably at least one caller behind you). You are going to be in even worse shape post flop with even more incentive for everyone to draw.

I typically like to Open Raise with AT0 in MP, or else I am more inclined to Fold.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

KoRnholio

05-09-2007, 04:38 PM

#15 (permalink)

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[quote="euphoricism"]

Quote:

Do we really want T9 / KJ to fold?

If we just call both those hands are getting good pot/implied odds to continue. If a gutshot like KJ hits their straight (with a ten) on the turn we are going to lose a lot of bets with our 2 pair

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

euphoricism

05-09-2007, 07:31 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Except we know KJ would be making a bigger "mistake" than normal, because we're holding one of his 3 outs. And when he makes mistakes, we win.

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Farty McSimmons

05-18-2007, 11:28 PM

#17 (permalink)

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I raise, although it's probably wrong.

|~|ypermegachi

05-19-2007, 02:02 AM

#18 (permalink)

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call. not calling a raise.

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