Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Well not sure.

I capped preflop. Either I have AA/KK/ QQ/JJ/ AK/AQ. What do you have that limps pf and then donks into me? Assume you are an above-average-IQ fish...

Do you ever smell KJ/KT/JT here?

This isn't some guy who limp-calls with Q4 soooooted. And even if he does why should he donk the flop?

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Question 1: What do i have to gain by capping 88-TT pf in a big 3way pot? I would never do that. We're in see flop and/or set-hunting territory with those hands not blow people with AQ out of a big pot territory.

Capping AJs? That's a laugh and a half. Give me one good reason, and i'll give you ten not to.

Question 2: Say i have UTG beat. He's got Qx. The guy who 3bet pf cold called two. He's a solid player. Either he has Qx or AK or he's got a huge hand and is drooling over the chance to c/r the turn.

Really what am i gonna do if i bet the turn and it's c/r'd? Can't be pretty...

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Really what am i gonna do if i bet the turn and it's c/r'd? Can't be pretty...

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Well not sure.

I capped preflop. Either I have AA/KK/ QQ/JJ/ AK/AQ. What do you have that limps pf and then donks into me? Assume you are an above-average-IQ fish...

Do you ever smell KJ/KT/JT here?

This isn't some guy who limp-calls with Q4 soooooted. And even if he does why should he donk the flop?

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Well that's a matter of style really what you do preflop. Capping 88-TT isn't horrible but those are nasty cards to play postflop against a 3better. Not because you don't have equity three ways but because you'd really rather be out of the lead and get info from the flop and/or turn action.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

So what if AJs is best? You would still rather have the flop 'button' - pf raiser is to your right - because donking that flop gains you nothing if you miss and doesn't get paid off if you hit. Again it's a situation where you like to be out of the lead and let the other guy bet and fishy call or fold. Makes the rest of the hand sooo much more straightforward. (Maybe it's just a multitable play?)

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Q2: because you showed so much strength capping preflop and raising flop. The last time someone checked the turn behind after that is the first time (which is why i posted this hand in the first place). It means any strong hand is just waiting for the turn to pounce.

extra: Weak thinking matches our hand imo. AA on this board is just not that strong against two players in a capped pot with this board and this action.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Ok, let's forget the wonderful overpair AA i have that should win every pot for a minute. Let's assume UTG has at least 2 working neurons and a functional synapse connecting them. Give me a capping range of whatever you want and BB a 3bet range of whatever you want.

The flop is KJT.

What is he donking here?

Originally Posted by asdpikas

1) not horrible? we're talking the top 6,7,8 hands in holdem. You have position, there's a fish in the pot... u gotta love life!

2) i'd rather be in the lead in position so i can choose when to take free cards. I also see their reaction to my c-bet (if i c-bet) when there are overcards. Position just makes those hands a lot easier to play.

3) example: if flop comes K82 and it goes bet/call or bet/raise in front of me when i didnt cap TT, i hate life. Is there a K? is "solid" on AQ and ready to fold? is fishy raising 8x to shut me out?
If i have the init, i will sometimes get AQ, AJs, ATs, and some other hands that are drawing live against me to fold. On certain flops, i may get better hands to fold...

4) I may just cold call 88/99 if i'm in between, so that i can raise "solid" c-bet to shut out fish and protect my hand on the right kind of flop, and get away cheap on the wrong kind.

5) I dont get this, at all.

6) again, why would "solid" not lead turn with a monster?
Also, i'm not saying we have a huge hand, but we are still ahead of a decent amount of hands, and we need to bet against Qx.

Anyways, i guess we just disagree here. A lot.

Originally Posted by MSG85

5/10 is 3-4 levels above where I can profitable play. So I have a question regarding how I play this hand, and how it should be played at higer stakes.

At .25-.50,.50-1, 1,2: I keep betting until I'm reraised postflop here (One of these two , if not both, have a pair and a OESD so I can't give a freebie on the turn), and then I fold or call to SD dependent on my opponent...at what level does this stop working?

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Of course, he may not realise this (like a lot of people at 2/4 and lower don't realise this) but at 5/10 you have to give even the fishies a little credit.

Originally Posted by asdpikas

indeed, and another point not to be forgotten is we have outs against all hands that have us beat, so even when behind, we are not -EV in betting, given the size of the pot.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

If you're behind betting is always -EV unless you have FE which in this case i have none.

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is the only recurring theme that bothers me about what you have been saying, dog. i kind of see where you are coming from, but it sounds like a very passive, almost scared, thought process. i think this is a big part of Asd's side of the debate, too.

Originally Posted by Chopper

i understand we arent going to ram and jam with AA here, but we shouldnt give off free cards, either, should we? the pot is a nice size, we could very feasibly be ahead here against a number of draws, and we have position for the river.

Originally Posted by Chopper

i think we can anticipate a call or a check/raise, but we still NEED to fire here. we can deal with the raise when we see it. but, we could also take the free showdown depending on the river card, too.

Originally Posted by asdpikas

I wouldnt expect this from you, Dog...

clearly, betting nut FD against 5 villains on the flop is +EV, so, how can u make such a statement?

A bet is +EV when your equity in the pot is higher than your fair share. Whether you are behind or ahead, is circumstancial.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Thinking "ZOMG I HAVE AA!!" and ramming and jamming every time works ok at lower limits where people are oblivious to everything but their own hand, but once you get to mid-stakes you really have to start being a bit more thoughtful about your opponent's ranges and what they think your range is.

Originally Posted by asdpikas

So, let me explain with an example and some nrs.... (i am not representing OP hand, just something a bit more similar)

3 ppl on the turn, 12BBs in the pot

equity

1. 05%
2. 55%
3. 40%


Any bet that goes in is beneficial BOTH to player 2 and player 3. It is indeed MORE beneficial to player 2, but it is still slightly +EV for player 3 (EVEN THOGH HE MAY BE BEHIND). Big loser here would be player 1.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

The problem with this analysis is it assumes only one bet will go in on the turn. If that's the case and say you have 40% equity, then yes you show a (very small) profit by betting. If (e.g.,) the pot is 8 BB you gain an extra 0.2BB by betting the turn and getting two calls with 40% equity.

But if someone c/rs you, then you will be putting in 2 BB with what is on average much less equity. Say you have 10% equity and check behind the turn. You will commit 0 BB to an 8BB pot which will mean you make on average 0.8BB. But if you bet and get c/rd you are committing 2 BB with 10% equity which is a net loss of -0.6BB. The difference between checking behind and being c/rd in this situation is -1.4BB, which is a HUGE risk compared to very small potential profit of 0.2BB you make by betting when you have 40% equity.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I don't really see how an in-depth analysis of BB's 3betting range helps us here. I mean he's not calling two cold on the flop with 44. And he's not really the one we're worried about anyways.

Also FWIW, UTG is 45/10 OVERALL. That's not the same as saying he open-limps the 45-10=35% range UTG. That's just grossly misinterpreting his stats. A fair % of that VPIP is going to be over-defending blinds and limping from late position. He's not just limping any old thing with one paint card or sooooted from UTG.

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

About UTG, you can assume whatever you want about how he plays preflop. But I don't really see how this is relevant to the play on the flop. Does having a wider limping range somehow change the number of hands that he donks into a pf capper?

Originally Posted by asdpikas

if its so clear to you, u didnt have to ask for our opinions

Originally Posted by Chopper

this made me laugh. and, this "debate" was fun to watch. you guys will have to agree to disagree because, like politics and religion, you aren't changing each others' minds, obv.

but, it was great for the rest of us to see how two sides view the same situation.....and why.

so, imo, the summary is as such: ASD = Laggy McSpewtard and DOG = Taggy McNitterson. (now dont take offense to that. you should both know i am teasing.)

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Thinking "ZOMG I HAVE AA!!" and ramming and jamming every time works ok at lower limits where people are oblivious to everything but their own hand, but once you get to mid-stakes you really have to start being a bit more thoughtful about your opponent's ranges and what they think your range is.

The question in the present case is what my opponents could possibly have and what my equity vs. these hands is and what I have to gain vs. lose by betting the turn.

The main question regards UTG's holding. With a VPIP/pfr of 40/10 he is certainly capable of open-limping with KJ, KT, JT, QJ, QT, KQ and possibly even TT/JJ or Q9s.

The question is how many of these hands donk the flop and then just call a flop raise. Keep in mind that it's been 3bet and capped behind him preflop so he knows he's almost always behind and almost always getting raised in at least one spot when he donks Qx on a KJT board. He certainly doesn't have any FE and he's never winning a SD UI. Simple truth is he doesn't have enough equity to donk a hand like QJ or QT. Of course, he may not realise this (like a lot of people at 2/4 and lower don't realise this) but at 5/10 you have to give even the fishies a little credit. So that leaves KQ, KJ, KT, JT and (rarely) TT/JJ/Q9 and maybe include QJ for the times he's being silly. In other words, I'm pretty far behind his range.

The turn is a blank and it gets checked to me. Based on my read vs UTG I have barely my share of equity three ways. If I bet and am ahead, I get to charge draws and worse made hands. This is good if I have the best hand.

If I bet and am behind I am charging myself one and sometimes two BB to draw. This is horrible when I have the chance to take a free card with 3-6 outs.

Yet because I don't say "OMG I have AA!!" and jam it looks like an 'obvious' silly play. Put BB on any cold calling range you want and UTG on the range i gave him and stove it for the board on the turn. Then consider what I have to gain vs. lose by betting the turn. Then see if it still looks silly.

Originally Posted by MSG85

Should I, in the process of moving up, try to find games that play (at least in the lobby display stats) similar to higher stakes games at the level where I am currently at, and once I feel comfortable there, move up? Or should I just jump in to the juiciest games I can find between my current level and possibly juicy games at the next level I am rolled for?

Originally Posted by MSG85

Basically, I am curious what various people's experiences of switching level/sites had on their game play?

Originally Posted by Chopper

not to echo what was just said, but looking for "tougher opposition" is a little counter-productive. i know what you are saying, and i would like everyone to play really well, but give me all their money anyway, too. it just doesnt work like that.

always search for the softest games you can find at the highest level you are comfortable playing. we all hit plateaus in both our ability to beat a game and our comfortability with the money splashing around. there is nothing wrong with that. push it as high as you can, but keep looking for the fish as you go.

i wouldnt want to sit with Harman, Brunson, Negreanu, etc just for tougher competition and to practice before moving up. i would assume move up when i am ready and adjust as i move.