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epic
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03-13-2008, 04:27 PM
Post subject: Folding/River in general
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 60
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Lately, I'm finding myself trying to justify folding when I'm pretty sure I'm beat even when the pot justifies me calling. Most of the time, I was right about being beaten even though the pot was right to call.
At one point/situation do you go ahead and fold regardless of the pot? How good must the pot odds be for you to go ahead and call regardless?
This seems to be my biggest leak in limit right now. I typically don't have any trouble knowing when I'm beaten, knowing when I have the right odds to draw out, etc...but the river seems my weakest card in limit.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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You and most people.
Good times to fold (usually):
1. Ultrapassive player wakes up and donks the river when a draw comes in. If you have ever seen him bluff, don't fold (if you have a hand).
2. Your draw doesn't come in.
3. You are facing decent players who have shown strength or weren't afraid of your bets on earlier streets, and they bet into you, and it makes sense based on their ranges etc.
4. You are in between a donk and an aggressor and your hand is weak.
River betting/folding is one of the simplest but trickiest streets. On the one hand, the pot is often big enough for a small call. On the other hand, that call is often/usually lost chips. I think books like SSHE encourage people to call because losing 1 bet to a better hand is much better than losing a whole pot to a worse hand, and it does happen.
Notes are crucial.
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KoRnholio
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03-13-2008, 07:27 PM
Post subject: Re: Folding/River in general
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#3 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by epic
Lately, I'm finding myself trying to justify folding when I'm pretty sure I'm beat even when the pot justifies me calling. Most of the time, I was right about being beaten even though the pot was right to call.
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In large pots that is the way it should be. You can be 90% certain you are beaten, but when heads up on the end if the pot is more than 10BB, you still have to call because it's the right play.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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arborman
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03-13-2008, 10:20 PM
Post subject: Re: Folding/River in general
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#4 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KoRnholio
In large pots that is the way it should be. You can be 90% certain you are beaten, but when heads up on the end if the pot is more than 10BB, you still have to call because it's the right play.
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That's definitely the right default position, but there are many situations where it is a certainty that I am beat, and I am just donating chips.
Like tptk and the 4th flush card hits on the river (and I don't have a flush) with a passive ep player waking up and donking out and 2 more to act behind you.
I think the SSHE advice to not fold in most circumstances is correct, but improperly applied it can cost money too.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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In certain spots where you only beat a bluff and a bluff is unlikely (like in your 4flush, EP bets into a crowd example) then folding is certainly correct.
Most times when the default play is to call and show it down is when you are certain you can do so for one bet, and you are getting the right price. Usually this is heads up on the end in a medium-large pot when your hand has showdown value.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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