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folded AA -- rightly?

  
 
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euphoricism
Old 07-20-2005, 03:51 PM     Post subject: folded AA -- rightly? #1 (permalink)  
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Sorry no converter.. I'll highlight the important stuff


RoyBatty: -- --
jumpstrt2: -- --
Fugler: -- --
RGBrewer: Ac Ah
knarf36: -- --
Eliz: -- --
DC_Camel: -- --
pesenka: -- --
billgerr: -- --
Brozac: -- --

Pre-flop:

Brozac folds. RoyBatty folds. jumpstrt2 calls.
Fugler folds. RGBrewer raises to $1. knarf36 folds.
Eliz folds. DC_Camel folds. pesenka folds.
billgerr calls. jumpstrt2 calls.

Flop (board: 9d Kd Jd):

billgerr bets $.50. jumpstrt2 calls. RGBrewer
raises to $1. billgerr calls. jumpstrt2 calls.

Turn (board: 9d Kd Jd 6d):

billgerr bets $1. jumpstrt2 calls. RGBrewer folds.


River (board: 9d Kd Jd 6d 9c):

billgerr checks. jumpstrt2 bets $1. billgerr calls.




Thats a correct fold, right? Four to the flush, a bettor, and a caller. I guess its fairly obvious what happened, but I'm trying not to be results oriented here.
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juke0414
Old 07-20-2005, 06:29 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Well I don't think it's a wrong move to dump this hand with four to the flush many times. But with only three players preflop, I would raise the turn and dump to a reraise. Personally, some warning bells start going off when the board hits four to a flush on the turn and the player who bet/called on the flop leads out and the player who over called the flop smooth calls on a scare card. Based on their play, I would put billgerr on TT (maybe one diamond,) and jumpstrt2 on JxQd. This is a situation where it pays to know if your opponents are rocks, loose/passive, et cetera. You really need to know if your opponents are capable of betting on the come out of position. Most players don't flop a flush and fast play it three handed, but many players flop four to the nut flush and fast play it three handed. It's just really tough to tell how to play a situation like this when you don't know your opponents. But I guess my read was wrong as it doesn't sound like either had a diamond.
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-20-2005, 07:19 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 lol, no you folded it wrong

you got donk betted out of the pot. The best thing to do is call it down.


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euphoricism
Old 07-20-2005, 07:42 PM #4 (permalink)  
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This honestly confuses me. You dont think either of them holds atleast some rag diamond? I can't see calling down here
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-20-2005, 07:53 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 KJ, K6, J6 all play that way.

If there was a bet and a raise thats a different story, but a donk bet and a call doesn't do anything for me.


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juke0414
Old 07-20-2005, 07:59 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Well, if you were to ignore the other player's betting, then statistically speaking one of the players is likely to hold a diamond. I would still have raised the turn because deciding to call down the hand is most likely committing to two bets (turn + river.) If you raise the turn, you have just spent two bets, but an ace or possibly even a queen will almost certainly reraise you, where you can fold at the same expense. Also on the turn, you may kick out a weak diamond. Finally, if either villian is holding a diamond other than the ace and cold call your turn raise, they will certainly check/call the river which means worst case (and most probable) scenario you pay the same two bets to call down your hand. Occasionally, the turn raise will win you the pot, though, which in my mind makes it the better play.
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koolmoe
Old 07-20-2005, 08:12 PM #7 (permalink)  
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From a purely statistical point of view, there is a 60% probability that one of your opponents holds a diamond, so there is plenty of reason to call down if you think they will bet and call without a diamond. Heads up (only 35% probability of a diamond) I definitely call down.

The overcall is kind of scary, and there are other ways to lose or get drawn out on that board, though, so I don't mind the fold too much. If it's a mistake, it's not a huge mistake.
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euphoricism
Old 07-20-2005, 08:28 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Thanks guys. I think I get it. I still think I'd fold if this happened again though :/ Theres just too many ways to beat me!
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Fnord
Old 07-20-2005, 08:33 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Against 2 random hands, we should call down given the healthy pot.

But we're not against 2 random hands. We have a bet and call in front. So ask yourself what do those actions mean for those players?

More often than not, I can't over-call here. If you're not beat now, then you probably will be by the river. The turn raise line has merit if you think a small diamond will fold.
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Nehmer
Old 07-20-2005, 08:35 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I play it exactly like you did.
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euphoricism
Old 07-20-2005, 08:37 PM #11 (permalink)  
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In all honesty, that billger guy is a complete donk. He really could have ANYTHING. Something like 89% vpip and 75% went to sd. Against him, I think i call this down every time.

But the overcall is what did it to me. It looked like he wanted me to call behind.
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Fnord
Old 07-20-2005, 09:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Call the flop, raise a non-diamond turn.

If diamond hits on the turn, you can fold to a bet + raise. Bet + call can go either way, but I'd feel more comfortable calling down in that spot for some reason...
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mike4066
Old 07-21-2005, 03:37 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
lol, no you folded it wrong

you got donk betted out of the pot. The best thing to do is call it down.
Disagree here man.
facing a bet/raise i think its ok to lay this down. It could get really expensive to keep calling.
you call 2 here, you prepared to call again if they 3bet?
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pokerfanatic
Old 07-21-2005, 04:18 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike4066
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
lol, no you folded it wrong

you got donk betted out of the pot. The best thing to do is call it down.
Disagree here man.
facing a bet/raise i think its ok to lay this down. It could get really expensive to keep calling.
you call 2 here, you prepared to call again if they 3bet?
it wasn't bet/raise it was bet/call so i think i agree with jeff
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ChezJ
Old 07-21-2005, 06:42 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 i don't like the raise on the flop. it accomplishes nothing and actually sweetens the pot for those who are drawing.
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mike4066
Old 07-22-2005, 01:42 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
it wasn't bet/raise it was bet/call so i think i agree with jeff
oops, can't read.

CALL DOWN!
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Fnord
Old 07-23-2005, 02:05 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
i don't like the raise on the flop. it accomplishes nothing and actually sweetens the pot for those who are drawing.
He's likely got the best hand, so a raise can't be all that bad. The problem here is that turn card is going to have a huge impact on his pot equity and his flop raise will almost never take down the pot on this board.
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