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Fnord's "Why you suck at Limit" Re-visited. (a lit

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RiverMonkey

02-10-2005, 09:51 PM Post subject: Fnord's "Why you suck at Limit" Re-visited. (a lit

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For my own benefit, and possibly the benefit of others I re-read Fnord's excellent list of reasons why people new to the game suck at limit Hold'Em. I then started to jot down things that I thought were relevant to each point. Things that I've come across in my own experience playing, reading and learning about the the game. I also added some follow-up questions that I thought might help me and others too.

It's a work-in-progress, but I thought I'd post it now to (1) get feedback on my thoughts, (2) hopefully help others, and (3) get a discussion going that might help others fully understand and appreciate why ignoring Fnord's advice really will make you suck!

Please feel free to agree/disagree and even take a cheap shot at me. After all, and I'm just a dumb chimp!

Random Thoughts on Fnord’s ‘Why you suck at Limit Hold’Em’

1. You play too many hands
o Given you are playing a 10-player ring-game, on average (assuming a random distribution of good playable hands) you rightfully should only be taking down about 10% of the pots on average. This is rough, but I still think it's incisive.

o You need to vary your starting hands based on your table, your position, your relative position to aggressives/passives, loose/tight players, whether there is a raise in front of you, etc, etc.

o If you play too many hands, you’ll see, very plain and simply, that you will simply leak away chips during the time between the hands that you do manage to drag in pots. Typically, your chip stack will either fluctuate up and down or slowly but surely shrink to nothing. Sure you may have a few lucky sessions and leave double or triple your buy-in when playing too many hands …… BUT, that was purely that, a lucky session. It won’t last over the long-run or even medium-term. Try it for yourself and see ... I did and the results were as plain as day.

o Experiment over a number of playing sessions, and you can prove to yourself that playing too many hands is a losing proposition! …… Try playing a number of sessions where you limp with lots of hands (you need to be able to afford to lose your buy-in if you do this), and then do the same where you play tight. Compare your results and you will see for yourself.

o Daniel Negreanu used to play a game with himself earlier in his poker career. Once a month, he would work on his post-flop game by loosening up pre-flop and playing lots of hands. His goal was to try to break even. Now, he is a world class player …… Do you really think your results can be better than his? Play tight, otherwise, you will not break even because you are not Daniel!

2. You chase with bad pot odds
o Simply put, this is a very a basic principle; you can’t expect to win at poker when the size of the pot, relative to money you put at risk to win it, isn’t large enough to pay you off for the times that you spend money and yet miss your draws

3. You call 2+ small bets cold pre-flop with off-suit hands (AQo, AJo, QJo, KTo, etc.)
o You are walking into a world of hurt when you put yourself in the position of being dominated like this. You make money at Hold’em when other players do just this against you, so don’t do it!

o If you limp and there is one raise behind you, this is a different situation. Assuming you are in a multi-way pot situation, go ahead and call the raise that occurred behind you. If you are heads-up, you could very likely be dominated.

o If you are playing against a loose-aggressive who is doing the pre-flop raising, this 'rule' may not fully apply.

4. You don't raise AKo,JJ,TT
o What about position here? Are you recommending point-blank raising with these hands pre-flop from any position in all game situations? Some exceptions being when there is a raise in front of you from a solid tight player, or a newb/fish/transparent player who is doing the ‘I’ve got pocket Aces or Kings shake & quiver’.

o For AKo definitely ….. Even with lots of limpers, cold-callers.

o My experience with JJ and TT varies … perhaps I just haven’t played these hands enough in real games situations to have a good feel for this. If you don’t hit your set on the flop with these hands, and you’ve raised pre-flop and you are looking at one or more over cards on the board haven’t you effectively put up too much money up-front before you know how you are going to stand post-flop?

5. You don't 3-bet/cap AA,KK,QQ,AK
o To me, this is a no-brainer with AA, KK, and to a lesser extent AK

o Even with QQ if you cap re-raise/pre-flop, you are EV +’ve. Even though over the short run it might not seem like it.

o In the live games I play in (mostly $4-8) I find QQ to be tricky to play. There is almost always an AX or KX hand out there, so if either an A or a K show up on the board you are in trouble with QQ (unless of course you hit your set, or fill a str8(-draw) with your Q)

o I find that short-term experience (i.e. putting in $16 pre-flop time after time only to see an A or K on the flop time after time) can tend to make a person play QQ more timidly than recommended. BUT, this is a product of short-term variance, and the human brain's natural tendancy to fear putting ones hand into the proverbial fire when in the past it has burned you. This is an illusion and you should just put your trust in the EV +’ve gods and raise them biatches.

6. You fold pretty good hands for 1 bet in big pots
o Pots odds people, pot odds! And not just immediate pot odds, you have to think in terms of effective/implied odds when there is more than one card to come.

o This doesn’t help a newb much unless you are more specific by what you mean when you say ‘pretty good hand’

o My definition of ‘pretty good hand’ is that you hold one of the following :
 TPTK/TPGK (Irrespective of whether the board is paired, or has a 4-str8, or 4-flush draw potential for your opponents?? This is where it gets tricky! You might be drawing dead, so beware, but don’t be timid)
 Two-pair without a paired board (bottom/middle, bottom/top or middle/top)
 A strong draw to what will almost surely be the best hand at showdown (a 4-card flush-draw, a 4-card straight draw (even gut-shots provided you are getting the right odds for the street on which you are considering calling the bet)
 One or more of the above that is complimented by the existence of one or more back-door draws
 Am I missing anything?

7. You open the pot for a limp outside of UTG/UTG+1 at a full table.
o Reading between the lines, what you are really saying is that you should raise (not limp) from outside of UTG or UTG+1if you are going to play the hand. Correct? Anything else to consider?

8. You ignore the size of the pot
o That's just dumb ....... Don't ignore the obvious! see Pot Odds etc!!

9. You think you can "punish" a flush draw
o Are you simply saying that things just aren’t this simple? That you have to also consider the size of the pot, how multi-way the pot is, and that implicit collusion possibly negates any punishment you think you may be doling out?
o Perhaps you are also saying that a flush draw is in fact a very strong draw (particularly when the board is not paired) and therefore you are simply not punishing the flush draw, but actually juicing up the pot for them. Pot equity people, pot equity!

10. You play unsuited cards with one big card and a little one
o You are putting yourself in a position of being dominated if you do this plain and simple. Yeah sure you can pair up both cards, but this just doesn’t happen often enough to make playing this crap EV +’ve.

o There are some exceptions, like play from the blinds, and short-handed games, and playing AXo from the button etc. But in general, you in fact do suck and so will your results if you play these hands.

11. You play suited crap out of position and for more than one bet outside of your blinds
o True indeed. Two-suited cards only flop a 4-flush about 11% of the time, and you still need to hit your fifth card by the river. So, your suited hands should really have more than one way to win and suited trash simply does not.

o More subtle questions like ‘what constitutes suited crap for what position?’ are what make hold’em such a complex and fun game.

o I would call any suited hand that not also have high card power, or is not also connected or semi-connected (one and sometime two-gappers), suited crap!

o For example, T2s is suited crap (even though Brunson won two world series with T2 (not sure if his hands were suited or not, but that’s kinda besides the point))!! But remember too, he was playing no-limit and had much better implied odds to work with.

12. You play your blinds too much when facing a raise (particularly heads-up)
o This one a tricky. It depends on so many factors that I'm too lazy to list right now. Letting all your blinds get stolen is weak and will promote more of the same. Defending your blinds with crap hands is just throwing away more money than is already gone. Let it go!

13. You think playing over-cards is your biggest leak
o Meaning what? That there are other much bigger leaks that you should concern yourself with first, or that playing over-cards is not in fact always EV -‘ve, and therefore is not a leak? Please explain further. Monkey scratches head in confusion.

14. You don’t bet the river often enough
o If possible, please explain the principles/concepts that you apply when deciding when to bet the river. Can you tell that I haven't read this part of SSH yet

o Here’s an example that came up in my live game last night. A solid player at the table who seems to be always willing to help other ‘regulars’ improve their game gave me the following advice ….. Please comment/refute/back-up as appropriate.

o Scenario: I had AQo in late position, with one limper in front of me and raised it pre-flop. Saw the flop with the limper and one cold-caller. The cold-caller was a decent player, who seemed to be experienced at the game. Flop was rag-rag-Q and may or may not have had two cards of the same suit. I bet out on the flop and the cold-caller called, and the limper folded. Turn was a K. I bet out and again was called.
o Advice I was given: If you bet on the river in this situation and you are raised you have to call, thus costing yourself two-big-bets. But, you only stood to earn one big-bet if you got called and end up having the best hand. Furthermore, if you are called, you are still beat by two-pair, or Kx. So, in this situation, you are better off checking because you are effectively risking losing two more big-bets just to earn one more.

15. You go all-in
o In other words, plain and simple, you should always have enough chips in front of you on the table to jam the pot if your hand warrants it. What if, you are dealt pocket aces on the next hand, or you flop a nut flush or even a boat? You are costing yourself money by not having enough cash in play.

o By the way, I see people burn themselves like this all the time. Dumb-asses!

16. You under-estimate how much of your profit comes from AA,KK,AK
o I hear “I don’t like to raise with AKo or AKs pre-flop; I like to limp and then see how my hand fits the board” all the time. I even heard this said for KK. With AK, you are going to flop an A or a K 32% of the time!!! The odds are working for you ... let them!

o I also always hear “my aces always get cracked”, or “I hate cowboys, I always lose to A-rag hands”. I hate listening to that nonsense!

o Don’t be one of these people. They are just being foolish and are falling victim to seeing patterns due to short-term ‘badness’ that just isn't there. Their minds are playing a very normal trick on them. Our brains evolved to have exactly this reaction to any negative experience or set of experiences. Trust the math …. fight Darwin on this one!

17. You under-estimate how much of your profit comes from players that suck worse than you and fail to seek them out.
o This is easy to do online. See Table Selection essay for details.

o With the recent popularity of poker, live cardrooms are extremely busy and more often than not require you to put your name on a wait-list. On one hand, there are many new fresh fish in the proverbial sea, but you don’t always have the luxury of choosing the table and seat you want. Your recourse however, is to ask to move seats/tables after you get your initial seating if you find yourself in a less than desirable game/seat/table.

18. You under-estimate what long term is. 10,000 hands isn't long-term.
o Seeing this for yourself requires playing online, importing all your hand histories and using PokerTracker.
o In my experience, if you play live you will not be able to keep the kind of records and info you’d require to see this for yourself in black and white. So you simply have to trust and have faith!

19 Ok, this one is not on the original list ... but it's one of the reasons why, at times my play sucks. You are impatient and undisciplined and let your emotions control how you play
o You see people playing crap and dragging big pots while you sit there and fold hand afer hand, so you loosen up in an attempt to start dragging pots yourself.

o You see chasers get rewarded hand after hand while you fold hand after hand. Or worse yet, they chase against you and hit there miracle cards to take you down on the river. You respond by loosening up, pre-flop or worse, start chasing yourself. When other people hit runner/runner flushes or str8s with no other connection to the board that can really piss me off!

o You raise your TPGK/TPTK and make others pay to beat you, and yet it seems like hand after hand they hit a 2 or 3 outer on the river to beat your good but vulnerable hand. You did what you were supposed to do. You made them pay. Over the long run, they will pay and those chips will go to you. Again, this is your brain playing tricks on you. How come you never seem to remember all the nice smallish to medium pots you drag in when that frikin' chaser pays you off all the way to the river.

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elipsesjeff

02-10-2005, 11:03 PM

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Chicago_Kid

02-10-2005, 11:23 PM

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Maybe 13 refers to players who lose on over cards cause they overplay them or play out of position (QJ, KJ, JTo, QT, etc.) I HATE playing these in early position...big losers.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Fnord

02-11-2005, 02:38 AM Post subject: Re: Fnord's "Why you suck at Limit" Re-visited. (a

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

o My experience with JJ and TT varies … perhaps I just haven’t played these hands enough in real games situations to have a good feel for this. If you don’t hit your set on the flop with these hands, and you’ve raised pre-flop and you are looking at one or more over cards on the board haven’t you effectively put up too much money up-front before you know how you are going to stand post-flop?

o I find that short-term experience (i.e. putting in $16 pre-flop time after time only to see an A or K on the flop time after time) can tend to make a person play QQ more timidly than recommended. BUT, this is a product of short-term variance, and the human brain's natural tendancy to fear putting ones hand into the proverbial fire when in the past it has burned you. This is an illusion and you should just put your trust in the EV +’ve gods and raise them biatches.

JJ/TT win quite often unimproved, even against large fields. Playing QQ timidly is really weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

7. You open the pot for a limp outside of UTG/UTG+1 at a full table.
o Reading between the lines, what you are really saying is that you should raise (not limp) from outside of UTG or UTG+1if you are going to play the hand. Correct? Anything else to consider?

The key word is open.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

Yes it might be a win 1 lose 2 situation, but you're ignoring the odds he had a better holding AND (check)raises with it vs the odds he calls with a worse hand. Given the stuff people take to showdown in modern games, you should bet the river for value more and bluff less because they just don't fold enough. Also consider that check/calling a player unlikely to bluff is almost a win 0 lose 1 situation. I see missed value bets like this in my live game like every other hand that goes to showdown.

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Eric

02-11-2005, 06:58 AM

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This thread has tons of great content. We need to copy some of this over to the html section of the site so the search engines can find it!

RiverMonkey

02-11-2005, 05:31 PM Post subject: Re: Fnord's "Why you suck at Limit" Re-visited. (a

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

JJ/TT win quite often unimproved, even against large fields. Playing QQ timidly is really weak.

Re: QQ Agreed 150%! I hope my original note didn't come across as me advocating playing QQ timidly .... It's a primo hand! I said "raise them biatches"!

Funny you mentioned TT winning unimproved even against a large field. Last night at the B&M, was playing in a $4/8 game and got TT in mid-position. I raised pre-flop, got 4 callers coming with me to the flop, 3 to the turn and 2 to the river. My TT held up ... J came on 4th, and no other overs came on any of the streets! Sweet!!!!!!!! I'd like to think that my pre-flop raise knocked out a J, but who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

The key word is open.

Please define 'open'

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Amen to that! I hate it when a player at the showdown shows middle pair when I have TPG(T)K and I didn't bet out on 5th. This is usually due to a mis-read on my part. Other than the obvious "What's your read on the dude(s) and how they've been playing so far" do you have any advice on the thought process you employ in this situation when deciding whether to bet on 5th for value. I can stand missing out of those extra big-bets from those fishy calls.

gabe

02-11-2005, 05:39 PM Post subject: Re: Fnord's "Why you suck at Limit" Re-visited. (a

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

The key word is open.

Please define 'open'

open = the first one to voluntary put money in the pot.

like if you have KTs in MP3 and it is folded to you, you should raise.

RiverMonkey

02-11-2005, 06:09 PM

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In general ..... Open = limp or raise, and Fnord is saying that when you 'open' from outside of UTG or UTG+1, you should almost always raise if you are going to play the hand at all.

That's just TAG 101.

That's how I interpreted the original post; just wanted to make sure it was crystal clear for others that read it too.

BTW, even at the $4/8 level I play at in B&Ms pre-flop is USUALLY, and certainly not always, your best opportunity to thin the field. These games are often so loose it's insane (unbelievable but true)! Anyone who has almost any connection with the flop (e.g. bottom pair/weak kicker) will stick around at least to 4th street (and sometimes to the river) to see if that can hit a 2 or 3 outer.

The other week, had QJs from LP and raised pre-flop. Other dudes had: BB=35s, MP=JT ....... both called.

Flop was Q3J rainbow ..... I raised LP's flop bet, and both LP and BB called. 4th street was a blank for all. I bet, and both players called. River was a 3, and UTG took it down with trip-3s.

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