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Fnord's hand of the day 3/22

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Fnord

03-22-2005, 06:09 PM Post subject: Fnord's hand of the day 3/22

#1 (permalink)

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Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 8

, T

.
UTG calls, 6 folds, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 9

, 7

, 8

(3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, UTG raises, SB folds, Fnord calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K

(2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets, Fnord calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 8

(2 players)
Fnord checks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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|~|ypermegachi

03-22-2005, 06:37 PM

#2 (permalink)

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why did you call the turn?

Fnord

03-22-2005, 06:50 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

why did you call the turn?

I might have the best hand, fail that I have some draws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

03-22-2005, 07:42 PM

#4 (permalink)

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bleh i'm a moron, didn't see you were open ended...

are you check raising the river? i prefer betting because it saves you money when they hit a miracle runner runner flush. otherwise check raising opens you to the expensive 3 bet.

check calling's too weak imo.

zenbitz

03-22-2005, 07:47 PM

#5 (permalink)

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I think UTG is weak-tight, and checks behind you with 777.

Fnord

03-22-2005, 07:56 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

I think UTG is weak-tight, and checks behind you with 777.

He's not checking behind with 77788

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-22-2005, 07:57 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

are you check raising the river? i prefer betting because it saves you money when they hit a miracle runner runner flush. otherwise check raising opens you to the expensive 3 bet.

What do you think UTG has?

What line do you take on this river?
Bet/call?
Bet/3-bet?
check/raise/call?
Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chicago_Kid

03-22-2005, 08:22 PM

#8 (permalink)

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C/R, he has Kx of hearts...

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Fnord

03-22-2005, 08:24 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid

C/R, he has Kx of hearts...

2 hearts isn't a bad guess. Putting him on Kx specifically is kinda silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

03-22-2005, 08:37 PM

#10 (permalink)

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ya know....AA KK AK are all likely candidates...a failed limp-raise attempt preflop.

i like the bet/call the most as the standard play.

it may be a bit passive on my part, but with a possible straight, flush, and boat out there i really don't wanna take the river to 3 bets. my kicker isn't all that great either for the possibility they have A8, K8 etc.

RiverMonkey

03-22-2005, 09:33 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

why did you call the turn?

I might have the best hand, fail that I have some draws.

Hmmm ... this one is actually quite interesting.

Humour me and let me play devil's advocate a little here.

(Mostly because I'm interested in your thoughts/reaction and any discussion that arises. To be honest, I'm not sure where I stand on this hand personally.)

You could make a case for checking the flop, but you can also make a case for betting it as you did. I probably would have bet it too (3 justifications: fold equity against 2 other players, and your pair+draw as back-up).

re: Fold equity: I think over the long haul, you are relatively safe in assuming that the flop missed your other 2 opponents more than it 'missed' you (I say 'missed' because you did connect quite well actually). In other words, if you had position on two other players (which you didn't) here and they checked to you, and you don't fear a CR, you gotta bet this flop with any two cards.

Of note, UTG does have position on the blinds.

From what I can tell, having reasonable confidence that you are leading would have to be the main justification for calling the turn. Mathematically, if you are in fact behind, I don't think you have enough over-lay to draw.

You can't like you're str8-draw on the turn that much:

o You're 4.75:1 against hitting your str8 (assuming all 8 outs are clean which they may not be)
o you could already be drawing dead to JT
o there's the possible club and heart flush draws
o perhaps most importantly, the pot is only 3.5BBs. Giving you 3.5:1 immediate pot odds.

You're draw to trip 8s can't even be considered two clean outs because the 8 of clubs completes a flush.

You're draw to two pair isn't that great either .... the T of hearts and clubs are tainted.

It is heads-up by the turn, so that lowers the possibilty that your outs are tainted, but technically they are.

The pot is small ... maybe even a check-fold on the flop is in order??? I'm not sure.

Did you have reads that made you want to play this hand out?

Fnord

03-22-2005, 09:48 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

The pot is small ... maybe even a check-fold on the flop is in order??? I'm not sure.

No fucking way. I bet this flop every time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ChezJ

03-22-2005, 09:56 PM

#13 (permalink)

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why in the world would any of you think UTG has two clubs in his hand? he raised the flop when there were two HEARTS on board. the club on the turn was no help whatsoever to anybody.

i would bet the river, but it's possible the guy limped in with JT and flopped a str8.

ChezJ

RiverMonkey

03-22-2005, 10:03 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

The pot is small ... maybe even a check-fold on the flop is in order??? I'm not sure.

No fucking way. I bet this flop every time.

I'm with yah, just being the devil's sheister. That was the purpose of my long-winded preamble.

I always bet this flop as well (like I said, maybe even with any two cards), but sometimes my aggression gets me in trouble ..... But to that, I'm learning to say 'so f'ing what!'

What's your thoughts on the turn/your draw if you're behind?

RiverMonkey

03-22-2005, 10:23 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

I didn't say I thought that. Was just laying out the big picture for the sake of this discussion.

It is a minor possibility, and had to be listed for completeness. Have you ever hit your back door flush draw when you also had some other connection with the board too? It happens ... VERY rarely, but it happens. I just stated the fact that some of Fnord's turn-draw outs are possibly tainted. That was one, albeit remote, way that they were. It's obvious that hearts are a bigger threat here than clubs. You can't completely rule out say, just as an example, a two-pair-on-the-flop holding like 9c8c (before seeing the 8c on the river of course).

Focus more on the the strength, or lack-thereof of the open-ended str8 draw. My main point was .... 'if you are behind on the turn, how do you like you chances that your open-ender will save you?'. Especially when the pot is only paying you 3.5:1.

For me, the critical decision point in this hand is "Am I ahead or behind?" going into the turn. If you put yourself behind, is this 3.5BB pot worth risking a few more bets for?

Remember ... devil's advocate

Also, I should state that you wouldn't be completely drawing dead to JT as I mentioned earlier ... you could tie if another J came. My bad.

Chicago_Kid

03-22-2005, 11:00 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

ya know....AA KK AK are all likely candidates...a failed limp-raise attempt preflop.

He was UTG, think he'd limp there with these hands?

I still think he has 2 hearts, one of them likely the Kh, and you should raise the river if he bets.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

|~|ypermegachi

03-23-2005, 12:31 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

ya know....AA KK AK are all likely candidates...a failed limp-raise attempt preflop.

He was UTG, think he'd limp there with these hands?

in a tight table this might be the only way to get action on your big hands. you don't want it to fold around and take the blinds.

Fnord

03-23-2005, 12:39 AM

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I thought I might be up against a busted draw so I figured I'd try to draw a desperation river bluff. Fail that, I would only lose 3 bets if I'm behind vs running a bet/3-bet line. Still, the bet/call line has merit.

Anyway, TT checked behind and said something like "I love 2 outers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Room

03-23-2005, 12:53 AM

#19 (permalink)

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good hand of the day

id put him on KQ. if you respect him, KhQh is a likely hand as well. a flop raise is the proper with a flush draw, and 2 overs. then, he improves the turn and figures he has the best hand, which he does. i think if you want to get interesting, you lead the river and (although you shouldnt) id probably call a raise. he has to put you on the 8s if you lead so hes only going to raise with a better hand. however, you can argue to call here. if hes a smart player, he will put you on the 8s, have a WORSE hand and know that his hand only beats a bluff, therefore he must bet to get you to fold and to win the hand. thats definately a lot to think about in a few seconds!

elipsesjeff

03-23-2005, 06:02 AM

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Looks like an obvious AK or overpair play on the flop to me. He hit the turn so need to free card and the river only helped Fnord out.

I would definately check raise here, depending on what kind of read you get. If he bets real quickly I would call here (auto-bet/raise), if he thinks for a little bit then bets your hand is probably pretty good so raising should be in order.

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Fnord's hand of the day 3/22

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